Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[wargame_insomniac]

from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1487515750894026760 and https://www.navylookout.com/converting- ... ike-ships/

I understand this Lyme Bay modernization will be focused on flexible hangar to be replaced with some fixed structure.

On the other hand, looking at RFA Argus and these two photo, in future, "how to design the elevator" looks more important. If vehicle deck can be re-rolled to be a helicopter hangar, MRSS could be more flexible. "Combining vehicle deck and helicopter hangar" is commonly used in Spanish LHD and French LHD design. Looking at these photo of Bay class, and taking into account this concept, I thought;
- design 6 MRSS based on LSD hull similar to Bay class size (or 8 hulls with 10000t FLD smallish option), but with wider hull.
- build 5 of the 6 (or 6 of the 8) MRSS to LSD design similar to Bay class, with medium-size well dock as 40-45m long, 16m wide, to carry two Caimen-90 LCM each, and a helicopter hangar for ~3 Merlin near the bridge, with two spot flight deck.
- build 1 of the 6 (or 2 of the 8) MRSS to aviation support design. Binning the well-dock, to enlarge the vehicle deck/hangar. Add a single large elevator capable of up-to Chinook. Binning the upper-deck hangar, enlarge the flight deck with 3 spots. For HADR, she can carry vehicle/support-cargo mixed with helicopter. For amphibious operation, she can be filled with helicopters.

A full-fat amphibious operation can have
- one aviation-support MRSS with 3 Chinook (or 2 Chinook and 3 Merlin), (or the second CVF as LPH with large space)
- 3 LSD-type MRSS, each with 3 Merlin and two Caimen-90 LCU.
In total, the fleet will provide; 4 Chinook, 9 Merlin and 6 LCUs.

Thoughts?

Do we have definitive answer as to what these 6*MRSS will be replacing?
Is it all of the following 2*Albion, 3*Bay, 1*Argus?

And will these 6*MRSS be solely allocated to Littoral Response Group North and South?
Or will some be used solo for smaller stand alone raiding parties of Royal Marines commandos?

Looking at current formations for comparision only. the USN Amphibious Ready Group's currently usually comprised of 1*LHA, 1*LPD, 1*LSD +escort, and the RN Littoral Response Group (North) currenty comprised of 1*Albion & 1*Bay +escort.

Looking at your suggestions, would it be better to have 4*LSD-type MRSS and 2*aviation-support MRSS? That would leave 1*aviation-support MRSS avilable for each LRG?

[Lord Jim]

At present the MRSS ae supposed to be replacing all the RN and RFA's current amphibious platforms including Argus. As for the FCF, the two remaining full sized Commandos will each be part of an LRG, with one reinforced company (LSU) at a time embarked on a single MRSS, with the remainder rotating said deployment. There should be enough MRSS to allow two to be deployed at any one time, one per LRG. Elements for other Commandos will provide contingents on other RN and RFA vessels like those currently on the Rivers and also secure high value installations. If the balloon went up big time I see no reason that one or more of the non deployed MRSS could not be activated together with a embarked LSU. The Aviation component of the LRG is gong to be what is carried on the MRSS and its Escort, the latter probably being a Wildcat. I believe the default helicopter on the MRSS with the the Merlin HC4/4a, with Chinooks and Apaches deployed for specific missions. The Composition of the LSU stars with a Royal Marine Company, to which will be added specialists and support assets like 81mm Mortars, SHORAD, SF and so on. An issue I see though is what will be done with the Vikings and Bv206 and the latter's successor? How will these feature in the FCF's new raiding doctrine, or will they be reserved for more persistent deployments, or will the be partially loaned to the Army when say the Ranger Regiment has troops deployed in areas of very difficult terrain. As far as ship to shore facilitators, besides helicopters the existing ORCs will play a major part for both Royal Marines and SF. One thing I cannot see the MRSS carrying at any time are conventions Army formations, these will be shipped via contracted vessels like the current Points to support allied forces and/or reinforce any gains made my the LSUs. Having Maxi floats or whatever they are called attached to points to allow the to embark and disembark their cargoes will become routine and their operation will be a joint Navy and Army operation. Looking forward, I would say having the successor to the points FFBNW increased defensive systems is highly desirable. Maybe the MoD could partly finance these vessels in exchange for this capability and their use in times of need. These systems would need to be modular on the whole though things like the vessels radar and communications would be permanent, requiring one of more Royal Navy personnel to be embarked as minders to protect and maintain said systems. Obviously when the modular systems were installed such as Phalanx and countermeasures, the respective consoles would need to be installed and the relevant personnel embarked. When not needed they would operate as the Points currently do in the civilian sector. Sorry no paragraphs, this is types off the cuff and probably full of typos to boot.

[jimthelad]

Whilst we should not have knee jerk reactions following what has happened in Ukraine, we should reflect on the current amphibious strategy.

Early days, but I feel the FCF concept still stands. Highly trained / equipped dispersed units capable of operating independently causing havoc to larger forces seems proved.

What I do believe however is that the MRSS needs to die. The RN should push back into the 2040s replacements for the LPDs and probably the LSDs also - my view for the next 20 years would be a force based around the following:

3 RM LSGs:
- 2 groups based in the UK, based around a LPD which is capable to integrate with a CSG. These would be both focused on NATO/JEF, but also capable of global deployments.
- a forward group based around an Argus replacement based in Oman

Small forward operating groups:
- Troop sized RM units with supporting kit based on forward based OPVs, Wave Tankers and Ice Patrol Ship.

Army Brigade Logistics Group:
- Combination of the 3 Bays and Point replacements capable of deploying an Armoured Army Brigade globally.

[SW1]

Whilst we should not have knee jerk reactions following what has happened in Ukraine, we should reflect on the current amphibious strategy.

Early days, but I feel the FCF concept still stands. Highly trained / equipped dispersed units capable of operating independently causing havoc to larger forces seems proved.

What I do believe however is that the MRSS needs to die. The RN should push back into the 2040s replacements for the LPDs and probably the LSDs also - my view for the next 20 years would be a force based around the following:

3 RM LSGs:
- 2 groups based in the UK, based around a LPD which is capable to integrate with a CSG. These would be both focused on NATO/JEF, but also capable of global deployments.
- a forward group based around an Argus replacement based in Oman

Small forward operating groups:
- Troop sized RM units with supporting kit based on forward based OPVs, Wave Tankers and Ice Patrol Ship.

Army Brigade Logistics Group:
- Combination of the 3 Bays and Point replacements capable of deploying an Armoured Army Brigade globally.

The use of the RM as small “raiding” teams or as I prefer commandos I think is very valid. Used to hit high value targets or as covert fwd observers. They are missing a vital element in long range standoff missile systems. This could be either be from a ship or some sort of container of vehicle based system. The paras should probably have followed suit in the land environment heli or parachute insertions

Not sure we need 3 groups and to be honest most of the regimes in the Mid East are just as bad as putin.

RM detachments on ships are a core task but it should be any ship not specific to a few particular ones.

There is no need at all or even the faintest hope of deploying an armoured brigade globally. The army and indeed the UKs principle defence task is the security of the euro Atlantic area.

[Tempest414]

Whilst we should not have knee jerk reactions following what has happened in Ukraine, we should reflect on the current amphibious strategy.

Early days, but I feel the FCF concept still stands. Highly trained / equipped dispersed units capable of operating independently causing havoc to larger forces seems proved.

What I do believe however is that the MRSS needs to die. The RN should push back into the 2040s replacements for the LPDs and probably the LSDs also - my view for the next 20 years would be a force based around the following:

3 RM LSGs:
- 2 groups based in the UK, based around a LPD which is capable to integrate with a CSG. These would be both focused on NATO/JEF, but also capable of global deployments.
- a forward group based around an Argus replacement based in Oman

Small forward operating groups:
- Troop sized RM units with supporting kit based on forward based OPVs, Wave Tankers and Ice Patrol Ship.

Army Brigade Logistics Group:
- Combination of the 3 Bays and Point replacements capable of deploying an Armoured Army Brigade globally.

The use of the RM as small “raiding” teams or as I prefer commandos I think is very valid. Used to hit high value targets or as covert fwd observers. They are missing a vital element in long range standoff missile systems. This could be either be from a ship or some sort of container of vehicle based system. The paras should probably have followed suit in the land environment heli or parachute insertions

Not sure we need 3 groups and to be honest most of the regimes in the Mid East are just as bad as putin.

RM detachments on ships are a core task but it should be any ship not specific to a few particular ones.

There is no need at all or even the faintest hope of deploying an armoured brigade globally. The army and indeed the UKs principle defence task is the security of the euro Atlantic area.

what the RM and Para's need is Hero 120 man portable 40km range 1 hour loiter time can also be used for ISTAR

[wargame_insomniac]

Whilst we should not have knee jerk reactions following what has happened in Ukraine, we should reflect on the current amphibious strategy.

Early days, but I feel the FCF concept still stands. Highly trained / equipped dispersed units capable of operating independently causing havoc to larger forces seems proved.

What I do believe however is that the MRSS needs to die. The RN should push back into the 2040s replacements for the LPDs and probably the LSDs also - my view for the next 20 years would be a force based around the following:

3 RM LSGs:
- 2 groups based in the UK, based around a LPD which is capable to integrate with a CSG. These would be both focused on NATO/JEF, but also capable of global deployments.
- a forward group based around an Argus replacement based in Oman

Small forward operating groups:
- Troop sized RM units with supporting kit based on forward based OPVs, Wave Tankers and Ice Patrol Ship.

Army Brigade Logistics Group:
- Combination of the 3 Bays and Point replacements capable of deploying an Armoured Army Brigade globally.

Global deployments sound great but are way beyond any realistic capacity for UK armed forces for this decade. We have to invest to fill in the capability gaps both current and likely future gaps before we can think that.

So our priorities should be smaller in scale. For Navy we have CASD and anti submarine in North Atlantic and High North.

For Marines we have reinforcing Norway in event of Russian attack - I don't know if this would extend to Sweden and Finland if they joined NATO. Maybe even stretch to Baltic States and Poland?

So in my opinion we need to keep one Commando Battalion focussed on artic warfare and with sufficient ships to be able to move as an entire Battalion to Norway. I presume would need say Albion and one of the Bays to transport full battalion? Maybe one of the Points for stores and logistics?

I think an Army Brigade Logistics Group capable of deploying an Armoured Brigade using Points is a good idea - just not globally. At the moment we have commitments to reinforce Estonia and Poland. I have suggested before that we ought to advance deploy maybe a battalion in rotation to either Eastern Germany or Poland. They should have the bulk of the heavy equipment asvance deployed and then it is just reinforcements that need to be shipped via Points or airlifted.

Having a second LSG advance deployed to either Cyprus or Oman sounds a good idea. Ideally I would like Bulwark to be reactivated and along with a Bay Class for transport.

Then I agree we do want one Battalion that specialises in ship bosrding and small raiding actions. These would be spread across the various escorts and OPV - having a spread of 25-50 man RM units would give us good geographical coverage to do hit and run attacks. But as small rsiding forces these can't be used in prolonged engagements without considerable reinforcements.

It would be great if we had sufficient logistics to do the above. It probably needs more investments in many areas, including more airborne tankers and greater strategic airlift capacity.

Ideally for reinforcing our allies in Northern Europe it should be a layered approach. First some advance deployed Armoured Battalion with heavy armour and equipment. Second then rapid reaction force airmobile Light Infantry followed by Royal Marine Commandos LSG and then finally the rest of the battalions of the Armoured Brigade transported by Points.

[TSharpe28]

Whilst we should not have knee jerk reactions following what has happened in Ukraine, we should reflect on the current amphibious strategy.

Early days, but I feel the FCF concept still stands. Highly trained / equipped dispersed units capable of operating independently causing havoc to larger forces seems proved.

What I do believe however is that the MRSS needs to die. The RN should push back into the 2040s replacements for the LPDs and probably the LSDs also - my view for the next 20 years would be a force based around the following:

3 RM LSGs:
- 2 groups based in the UK, based around a LPD which is capable to integrate with a CSG. These would be both focused on NATO/JEF, but also capable of global deployments.
- a forward group based around an Argus replacement based in Oman

Small forward operating groups:
- Troop sized RM units with supporting kit based on forward based OPVs, Wave Tankers and Ice Patrol Ship.

Army Brigade Logistics Group:
- Combination of the 3 Bays and Point replacements capable of deploying an Armoured Army Brigade globally.

Global deployments sound great but are way beyond any realistic capacity for UK armed forces for this decade. We have to invest to fill in the capability gaps both current and likely future gaps before we can think that.

So our priorities should be smaller in scale. For Navy we have CASD and anti submarine in North Atlantic and High North.

For Marines we have reinforcing Norway in event of Russian attack - I don't know if this would extend to Sweden and Finland if they joined NATO. Maybe even stretch to Baltic States and Poland?

So in my opinion we need to keep one Commando Battalion focussed on artic warfare and with sufficient ships to be able to move as an entire Battalion to Norway. I presume would need say Albion and one of the Bays to transport full battalion? Maybe one of the Points for stores and logistics?

I think an Army Brigade Logistics Group capable of deploying an Armoured Brigade using Points is a good idea - just not globally. At the moment we have commitments to reinforce Estonia and Poland. I have suggested before that we ought to advance deploy maybe a battalion in rotation to either Eastern Germany or Poland. They should have the bulk of the heavy equipment asvance deployed and then it is just reinforcements that need to be shipped via Points or airlifted.

Having a second LSG advance deployed to either Cyprus or Oman sounds a good idea. Ideally I would like Bulwark to be reactivated and along with a Bay Class for transport.

Then I agree we do want one Battalion that specialises in ship bosrding and small raiding actions. These would be spread across the various escorts and OPV - having a spread of 25-50 man RM units would give us good geographical coverage to do hit and run attacks. But as small rsiding forces these can't be used in prolonged engagements without considerable reinforcements.

It would be great if we had sufficient logistics to do the above. It probably needs more investments in many areas, including more airborne tankers and greater strategic airlift capacity.

Ideally for reinforcing our allies in Northern Europe it should be a layered approach. First some advance deployed Armoured Battalion with heavy armour and equipment. Second then rapid reaction force airmobile Light Infantry followed by Royal Marine Commandos LSG and then finally the rest of the battalions of the Armoured Brigade transported by Points.

ambitious to have 3, 2 is enough unless there's a surge in Royal Marin recruits.

[Lord Jim]

As I understand it, LSG (North) will regularly train up north with our allies. This is based around a Commando, with a force up to a reinforces Company on high readiness. They are to embark on an Albion and a Bay, and could be supported by the CSG. I would like the modernization of all three Bays to incorporate Aviation facilities to be carried out, and the MRSS either cancelled or pushed back. I would also have both Albions operational so LSG(South) can be organised along the same lines. Of course in the case of a full blown war in Europe, requisitioned ships such as ferries and Ro-Ro vessels would allow the shipment of additional forces from available Commandos to be moved in theatre, as their specialist training will be sorely needed. These forces could compliment the in site LSG conducting amphibious operations or operate more in land, co-ordinating with seaborne forces and allies land forces.

We already have a Commando dedicated to shipborne operations and elements from this unit are already at sea on board the B2 Rovers for example.

As for the Army, moving forward we need to be able to move a Heavy BCT to continental Europe rapidly, we are talking days here not months or even weeks. This means we need to have a Heavy BCT at the same level of readiness as were units in BOAR in the 1980s. The points also need to be held on a shorter leash to allow them to be available to move this Brigade in the required timescale. If this means bringing them into the RFA then so be it. The most likely unloading location is Hamburg as the Baltic is too restrictive and moving said convoy through this region would require sizable escort assets. It could be done but those escorts could probably be more useful elsewhere.

ASW in the North Atlantic will still be a mission for the Royal Navy, but in terms of priority it will fall behind CASD, CSG and LSG(North). Other NATO nations will need to step up and carry the load as our focus moves towards carrier operations.

So back to the Amphibious forces available to the Royal Navy moving forward. pushing back replacements past 2040 and putting the Albions and Bays through refits and modernisation, though more manpower intensive is the way I see things. If both classes were given a hanger to hold either two Merlin or one Chinook, each LSG would have sufficient vertical lift, especially if a further helicopter was carried by any attached RFA. Armed helicopters would be embarked on the escorts assigned to the LSG. The Well Decks of these vessels, especially the Albions should be modified to be able to handle larger raiding craft such as the CB-90 as well as existing and future landing craft.

Modular defensive systems should be developed to be embarked on operational RFAs and the Points. This should include soft systems such as decoys as well as hard systems that comprise of more than a single Phalanx. Ideally I would like to see some sort of Containerised Sea Ceptor system with one container holding say twelve missiles in erectable VLS cells and a second container containing the command and control stations and one or two erectable datalinks. These would plug into the ships power supply and radar, which of course should be updated, ideally to something similar to that on the T-31s. Such a modular sysem could also be embarked on the B2 Rivers and definitely on any follow up class.

[wargame_insomniac]

Whilst we should not have knee jerk reactions following what has happened in Ukraine, we should reflect on the current amphibious strategy.

Early days, but I feel the FCF concept still stands. Highly trained / equipped dispersed units capable of operating independently causing havoc to larger forces seems proved.

What I do believe however is that the MRSS needs to die. The RN should push back into the 2040s replacements for the LPDs and probably the LSDs also - my view for the next 20 years would be a force based around the following:

3 RM LSGs:
- 2 groups based in the UK, based around a LPD which is capable to integrate with a CSG. These would be both focused on NATO/JEF, but also capable of global deployments.
- a forward group based around an Argus replacement based in Oman

Small forward operating groups:
- Troop sized RM units with supporting kit based on forward based OPVs, Wave Tankers and Ice Patrol Ship.

Army Brigade Logistics Group:
- Combination of the 3 Bays and Point replacements capable of deploying an Armoured Army Brigade globally.

Global deployments sound great but are way beyond any realistic capacity for UK armed forces for this decade. We have to invest to fill in the capability gaps both current and likely future gaps before we can think that.

So our priorities should be smaller in scale. For Navy we have CASD and anti submarine in North Atlantic and High North.

For Marines we have reinforcing Norway in event of Russian attack - I don't know if this would extend to Sweden and Finland if they joined NATO. Maybe even stretch to Baltic States and Poland?

So in my opinion we need to keep one Commando Battalion focussed on artic warfare and with sufficient ships to be able to move as an entire Battalion to Norway. I presume would need say Albion and one of the Bays to transport full battalion? Maybe one of the Points for stores and logistics?

I think an Army Brigade Logistics Group capable of deploying an Armoured Brigade using Points is a good idea - just not globally. At the moment we have commitments to reinforce Estonia and Poland. I have suggested before that we ought to advance deploy maybe a battalion in rotation to either Eastern Germany or Poland. They should have the bulk of the heavy equipment asvance deployed and then it is just reinforcements that need to be shipped via Points or airlifted.

Having a second LSG advance deployed to either Cyprus or Oman sounds a good idea. Ideally I would like Bulwark to be reactivated and along with a Bay Class for transport.

Then I agree we do want one Battalion that specialises in ship bosrding and small raiding actions. These would be spread across the various escorts and OPV - having a spread of 25-50 man RM units would give us good geographical coverage to do hit and run attacks. But as small rsiding forces these can't be used in prolonged engagements without considerable reinforcements.

It would be great if we had sufficient logistics to do the above. It probably needs more investments in many areas, including more airborne tankers and greater strategic airlift capacity.

Ideally for reinforcing our allies in Northern Europe it should be a layered approach. First some advance deployed Armoured Battalion with heavy armour and equipment. Second then rapid reaction force airmobile Light Infantry followed by Royal Marine Commandos LSG and then finally the rest of the battalions of the Armoured Brigade transported by Points.

ambitious to have 3, 2 is enough unless there's a surge in Royal Marin recruits.

Agreed - that why I suggested having two LSG - one UK based to cover Norther Europe and one based in Cyprus / Oman to cover the Middle East / East Africa.

3 Commando Brigade includes 3 battalions: 40/42/45 Commando, with several specialist detachments covering nuclear weapons protection, intelligence and recce, and small boats / landing craft (43/30/47 Commando respectively). So the 3 battalions can be used to cover the two LSG and the third split into smaller detachments spread amongst escorts and OPV etc.

[Repulse]

For me each LSG is one reinforced Coy of RMs and with the ability to carry two in overload. With two LSGs in the UK it means a 4 Coy force could be surged to Norway.

Enough in my book, as any more should now be the domain of the Army.

[SW1]

It’s should be remembered that the army hold the theatre strategic reserve Middle East in Cyprus with one of its infantry battalions there and they deployed in support of Kabul evacuation. The RM don’t have to be everywhere but where there specialist skill set is needed, they can main units at readiness to respond rather than over committing them permanently to multiple locations.

[wargame_insomniac]

It’s should be remembered that the army hold the theatre strategic reserve Middle East in Cyprus with one of its infantry battalions there and they deployed in support of Kabul evacuation. The RM don’t have to be everywhere but where there specialist skill set is needed, they can main units at readiness to respond rather than over committing them permanently to multiple locations.

From what I can see online, British Army bases in Cyprus include the 1st Battalion Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment (PWRR) as light infantry based at Episkopi, and 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment as light infantry based at Dhekelia from Sept 2021.

Then at RAF Akrotiri, as well as the detachment of Eurofighter Typhoons, there is one Airbus Voyager tanker plus two Lockheed Hercules transports. That does nt sound like enough aircraft to be able to transport even one of the two light infantry battalions?

The point is of we want to advance deploy even a single battalion reaction force in rotation, then we need sufficient transport, logistics and support elements for them to be deployed in a timely manner. So this does require additional investment to have even a single light infantry battalion to be deployed as a reserve to cover the Middle East.

[SW1]

It’s should be remembered that the army hold the theatre strategic reserve Middle East in Cyprus with one of its infantry battalions there and they deployed in support of Kabul evacuation. The RM don’t have to be everywhere but where there specialist skill set is needed, they can main units at readiness to respond rather than over committing them permanently to multiple locations.

From what I can see online, British Army bases in Cyprus include the 1st Battalion Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment (PWRR) as light infantry based at Episkopi, and 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment as light infantry based at Dhekelia from Sept 2021.

Then at RAF Akrotiri, as well as the detachment of Eurofighter Typhoons, there is one Airbus Voyager tanker plus two Lockheed Hercules transports. That does nt sound like enough aircraft to be able to transport even one of the two light infantry battalions?

The point is of we want to advance deploy even a single battalion reaction force in rotation, then we need sufficient transport, logistics and support elements for them to be deployed in a timely manner. So this does require additional investment to have even a single light infantry battalion to be deployed as a reserve to cover the Middle East.

The Beauty of air mobility they can have aircraft in Cyprus within 6 hrs of leaving Brize Norton and moving people as required they don’t need to be permanently out there. Would I like more air mobility yep would be a top priority.

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events ... vacuation/

[TSharpe28]

Whilst we should not have knee jerk reactions following what has happened in Ukraine, we should reflect on the current amphibious strategy.

Early days, but I feel the FCF concept still stands. Highly trained / equipped dispersed units capable of operating independently causing havoc to larger forces seems proved.

What I do believe however is that the MRSS needs to die. The RN should push back into the 2040s replacements for the LPDs and probably the LSDs also - my view for the next 20 years would be a force based around the following:

3 RM LSGs:
- 2 groups based in the UK, based around a LPD which is capable to integrate with a CSG. These would be both focused on NATO/JEF, but also capable of global deployments.
- a forward group based around an Argus replacement based in Oman

Small forward operating groups:
- Troop sized RM units with supporting kit based on forward based OPVs, Wave Tankers and Ice Patrol Ship.

Army Brigade Logistics Group:
- Combination of the 3 Bays and Point replacements capable of deploying an Armoured Army Brigade globally.

Global deployments sound great but are way beyond any realistic capacity for UK armed forces for this decade. We have to invest to fill in the capability gaps both current and likely future gaps before we can think that.

So our priorities should be smaller in scale. For Navy we have CASD and anti submarine in North Atlantic and High North.

For Marines we have reinforcing Norway in event of Russian attack - I don't know if this would extend to Sweden and Finland if they joined NATO. Maybe even stretch to Baltic States and Poland?

So in my opinion we need to keep one Commando Battalion focussed on artic warfare and with sufficient ships to be able to move as an entire Battalion to Norway. I presume would need say Albion and one of the Bays to transport full battalion? Maybe one of the Points for stores and logistics?

I think an Army Brigade Logistics Group capable of deploying an Armoured Brigade using Points is a good idea - just not globally. At the moment we have commitments to reinforce Estonia and Poland. I have suggested before that we ought to advance deploy maybe a battalion in rotation to either Eastern Germany or Poland. They should have the bulk of the heavy equipment asvance deployed and then it is just reinforcements that need to be shipped via Points or airlifted.

Having a second LSG advance deployed to either Cyprus or Oman sounds a good idea. Ideally I would like Bulwark to be reactivated and along with a Bay Class for transport.

Then I agree we do want one Battalion that specialises in ship bosrding and small raiding actions. These would be spread across the various escorts and OPV - having a spread of 25-50 man RM units would give us good geographical coverage to do hit and run attacks. But as small rsiding forces these can't be used in prolonged engagements without considerable reinforcements.

It would be great if we had sufficient logistics to do the above. It probably needs more investments in many areas, including more airborne tankers and greater strategic airlift capacity.

Ideally for reinforcing our allies in Northern Europe it should be a layered approach. First some advance deployed Armoured Battalion with heavy armour and equipment. Second then rapid reaction force airmobile Light Infantry followed by Royal Marine Commandos LSG and then finally the rest of the battalions of the Armoured Brigade transported by Points.

ambitious to have 3, 2 is enough unless there's a surge in Royal Marin recruits.

Agreed - that why I suggested having two LSG - one UK based to cover Norther Europe and one based in Cyprus / Oman to cover the Middle East / East Africa.

3 Commando Brigade includes 3 battalions: 40/42/45 Commando, with several specialist detachments covering nuclear weapons protection, intelligence and recce, and small boats / landing craft (43/30/47 Commando respectively). So the 3 battalions can be used to cover the two LSG and the third split into smaller detachments spread amongst escorts and OPV etc.

42 is counter-piracy ship defence now. It's no longer what it was aka commdo battalion. So that's only 2 LRGs/LSGs formed by 40 and 45 CDO. Restructure the RM reserves.

[Tempest414]

for me the way forward is to bring both LPD's back into operation one for each LRG . LRG North should have a Bay class and if needed be backed up by a carrier LRG South should have RFA Argus carrying 6 helicopters as standard this would allow each force to ramp up from company level to battalion level quickly

It should be pointed out that LRG North normally operate with a Dutch LPD which can carry up to 6 Helicopters

[Lord Jim]

As well as a reinforces Company of Dutch Marines.

[Poiuytrewq]

for me the way forward is to bring both LPD's back into operation one for each LRG . LRG North should have a Bay class and if needed be backed up by a carrier LRG South should have RFA Argus carrying 6 helicopters as standard this would allow each force to ramp up from company level to battalion level quickly

It should be pointed out that LRG North normally operate with a Dutch LPD which can carry up to 6 Helicopters

This is definitely the way forward but both LRG’s are needed in the Med, Baltic and High North for the foreseeable. Everywhere else will have to wait and the gaps filled by Allies.

The MOD need to stop procrastinating and adapt TWO of the Bays with a large fixed hanger. The Waves should be reactivated and each LRG should consist of an Albion, Bay and Wave plus escort(s).

These LRG’s can be supplemented by Argus or PWLS if required.

It’s time to stop messing around and use the assets that are in the water now.

The fixed hangers should be designated as a UOR and additional commercial vessels should be leased to fill any gaps left by the Bays.

[SW1]

The strategic folly of the RN obsession with carrier strike grows ever larger.

[TSharpe28]

The strategic folly of the RN obsession with carrier strike grows ever larger.

The RN wants both and the RAF wants the carriers as well to prove the F-35Bs can work. Oh and RAF assets are needed for LRGs like Chinook.

[Tempest414]

The Chinook can only operate as part of the LRG from a carrier

[wargame_insomniac]

42 is counter-piracy ship defence now. It's no longer what it was aka commdo battalion. So that's only 2 LRGs/LSGs formed by 40 and 45 CDO. Restructure the RM reserves.

Thanks for clarifying

[wargame_insomniac]

The strategic folly of the RN obsession with carrier strike grows ever larger.

They are not alone in that. Even if we ignore the five main nuclear states with permanent membership of UN Security Council, many other states are developing carriers: India definitely, Japan arguably, South Korea in the near future. If you include old second hand carriers then Brazil too.

Then if you include the lighter aircraft carriers that were aimed mainly at helicopters but can carry new STOVL jets like F35B, can add Italy, Spain, Egypt, Australia and maybe even Turkey.

So we are talking around a dozen states with ability to field at least STOVL carriers. Are you saying the Royal Navy should aim to be in the top twelve Navies of the world??

Now you can argue about the confused thinking about the planning stage of the tqo Queen Elizabeth class. At that size they should definitely have been STOBAR allowing us to use F35C with longer range and heavier payloads. Or that if we were sticking with a carrier wing of say maybe a dozen F35B, we could have built them cheaper and smaller, more akin to the previous Illustrious class and justified them as assisiting ASW operations in North Atlantic. But we have got what we have got and so we now just need to use them both as effectively as possible.

[serge750]

Carrier Strike is an essential capability for the RN. The FCF I think is spot on, though perhaps too keen on new ships when they aren’t using what they have. The gap is the Army’s ability to move a brigade by sea.

[Scimitar54]

Tempest414 Wrote:-

The Chinook can only operate as part of the LRG from a carrier

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So it MAY WELL operate from a carrier, but it CAN operate from an LSD or any of the T45s or any of the “in-build” and planned T26s.

[jedibeeftrix]

So in my opinion we need to keep one Commando Battalion focussed on artic warfare and with sufficient ships to be able to move as an entire Battalion to Norway. I presume would need say Albion and one of the Bays to transport full battalion? Maybe one of the Points for stores and logistics?

Battalion, or battlegroup? i.e. with or without the CS/CSS that permits the battalion to fight as a mobile combined arms maneuvre unit, rather than ~600 individuals crouched in slit trenches with bergens stacked next to them?

The FCF I think is spot on, though perhaps too keen on new ships when they aren’t using what they have. The gap is the Army’s ability to move a brigade by sea.

Did i miss it getting actually published, as a tangible and real 'thing' that we can poke at and test as something more than a collection of hypotheticals?