Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Tempest414 wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 17:43 it would be good to know the out come of fitting TAS to the Absalon's as they have the same hull form as the type 31 we also know type 31 can make 24 knot on 2 engines so should be able to make between 12 & 18 knots on reduced rev's. for me I would rather fit a 40mm gun than have LMM on a 30mm mount as LMM has a max range of 8 km's and the stopping power of a 40mm round where the 40mm Mk-4 has a max range 12km's and 100+ rounds

So a type 31 with its 57mm , 2 x 40mm carrying 320 round and Wildcat with 20 LMM should make a real mess of a swam attack of say 40+ boats
What are the stats on rate of fire between:
a) 1*40mm by itself
b) 1*DS-30M Mk II plus LMM

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Both the 40 & 30mm have the same rate of fire of up to 200 rpm of cause the 30mm can't fire both rounds and LMM at the same time but it is not about rate of fire its now down to range and air burst rounds due to the new boats carrying missiles with a max range of 8000 meter

30mm 200 rpm range effective 3000 meters range max 5000 meters
40mm 200 rpm range effective 6500 meters range max 12000 meters plus 3P rounds
57mm 200 rpm range effective 8500 meters range max 17000 meters plus 3P rounds
LMM operational range 8000 meters

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by NickC »

Tempest414 wrote: 19 Dec 2021, 09:43 Both the 40 & 30mm have the same rate of fire of up to 200 rpm of cause the 30mm can't fire both rounds and LMM at the same time but it is not about rate of fire its now down to range and air burst rounds due to the new boats carrying missiles with a max range of 8000 meter

30mm 200 rpm range effective 3000 meters range max 5000 meters
40mm 200 rpm range effective 6500 meters range max 12000 meters plus 3P rounds
57mm 200 rpm range effective 8500 meters range max 17000 meters plus 3P rounds
LMM operational range 8000 meters
Would note rpm rates quoted can be misleading as can only fire ~ 15 seconds before having to cease firing to stop barrel overheating, unless using water cooled barrel, that's why the medium machine guns have quick change barrels eg BREN/FN MAG, the Vickers HMG was water cooled.

The Bofors 40mm specs sheet notes 'Short firing sequences' without specifying number of rounds/seconds and how many seconds to cool down before recommencing fire, theoretical rpm is 300 rpm, with 100 rounds capacity in ready to fire magazine.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 17:43 it would be good to know the out come of fitting TAS to the Absalon's as they have the same hull form as the type 31 we also know type 31 can make 24 knot on 2 engines so should be able to make between 12 & 18 knots on reduced rev's. for me I would rather fit a 40mm gun than have LMM on a 30mm mount as LMM has a max range of 8 km's and the stopping power of a 40mm round where the 40mm Mk-4 has a max range 12km's and 100+ rounds

So a type 31 with its 57mm , 2 x 40mm carrying 320 round and Wildcat with 20 LMM should make a real mess of a swam attack of say 40+ boats
At the 12+ km longest range, 40 mm 3P rounds may be not effective against moving targets, I'm afraid. Guided-rounds on 57mm gun is required because of this reason, I think. At short range, 40 mm 3P with 300 rpm high-rate is great.

LMM will be very good addition to ships not equipped with 57mm gun. In the movie, LMM is hitting a target 5.5 km away within 18 seconds. Wanna see similar video of ALaMO.


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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 19 Dec 2021, 11:40
Tempest414 wrote: 18 Dec 2021, 17:43 it would be good to know the out come of fitting TAS to the Absalon's as they have the same hull form as the type 31 we also know type 31 can make 24 knot on 2 engines so should be able to make between 12 & 18 knots on reduced rev's. for me I would rather fit a 40mm gun than have LMM on a 30mm mount as LMM has a max range of 8 km's and the stopping power of a 40mm round where the 40mm Mk-4 has a max range 12km's and 100+ rounds

So a type 31 with its 57mm , 2 x 40mm carrying 320 round and Wildcat with 20 LMM should make a real mess of a swam attack of say 40+ boats
At the 12+ km longest range, 40 mm 3P rounds may be not effective against moving targets, I'm afraid. Guided-rounds on 57mm gun is required because of this reason, I think. At short range, 40 mm 3P with 300 rpm high-rate is great.

LMM will be very good addition to ships not equipped with 57mm gun. In the movie, LMM is hitting a target 5.5 km away within 18 seconds. Wanna see similar video of ALaMO.

The problem I am now having is 5 rounds of LMM on each mount means 10 missiles at best and if the attack comes from one side 5 also 40mm L/70 has a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s and we have all seen the effect of the 3P air bust rounds on small boats

the other thing is if these IRCG boats launch they missiles that max range the 30mm nor the LMM can engage them where the 40mm with 3P has a chance

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

When talking about type 31 in the Gulf maybe we could look at fitting 2 x Aselsan 8 LMM missile mounts one each side of the rear 40mm or as we have them 2 x Phalanx as seen on the model in 2018

A type Type 31 with its 57mm , 2 x 40mm plus 2 x Phalanx and 24 CAMM would be a big challenge for even a large swam attack also a weapon like Hero 120 could come in used to seek out command boats and take them out at the start

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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It would make a fine target for one of the Iranian mini subs however…
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Repulse wrote: 20 Dec 2021, 19:54 It would make a fine target for one of the Iranian mini subs however…
Exactly.

IMO it is becoming increasingly likely the T31 will be upgraded before commissioning as the fastest way to meaningfully grow the fleet is to arm the T31’s properly and build more patrol craft.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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I think you both over estimate the ASW abilities of the type 23 GP in the busy shipping lanes of the gulf and it is the job of the MPA's the locate identify and track subs in the gulf it will more than likely be a MPA that first see a swam attack building

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 09:06 I think you both over estimate the ASW abilities of the type 23 GP in the busy shipping lanes of the gulf and it is the job of the MPA's the locate identify and track subs in the gulf it will more than likely be a MPA that first see a swam attack building
Maybe, but there is no mistaking the ASW capabilities of the T31 - zilch.

MPAs have a role, but not something the RAF/UK is considering and the best "offensive anti-swarm" platform the UK has is the RN Wildcat that can easily be land based in Oman (which is completely anti-sub proof)
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Repulse wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 10:06
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 09:06 I think you both over estimate the ASW abilities of the type 23 GP in the busy shipping lanes of the gulf and it is the job of the MPA's the locate identify and track subs in the gulf it will more than likely be a MPA that first see a swam attack building
Maybe, but there is no mistaking the ASW capabilities of the T31 - zilch.

MPAs have a role, but not something the RAF/UK is considering and the best "offensive anti-swarm" platform the UK has is the RN Wildcat that can easily be land based in Oman (which is completely anti-sub proof)
This may or may not be the truth we don't know at this time the problem with Wildcat based in Oman is there range and time to area of need the fact is type 23 GP is a target for swam attack type 31 without a HMS is a target for subs and Type 26/45 are needed for the CSG's

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

Sonar is also useful for detecting surface vessels, of course, though it's main use would be in the littoral, where it is useful in detecting small boats using headlands or islands to conceal their approach from radar etc. Not really applicable in the Gulf, but maybe of more importance in the East Indies (if that still the right name for that part of the world). I think it would not be unreasonable to expect all RN vessels to carry at least basic ASW/ mine avoidance sonar, alongside SSTD (even the next generation of OPVs)
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Caribbean wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 12:45 I think it would not be unreasonable to expect all RN vessels to carry at least basic ASW/ mine avoidance sonar, alongside SSTD
Would agree on this - maybe ASW could be modular for OPVs, but mine avoidance and some level of SSTD wouldn’t go a miss.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Caribbean wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 12:45 ... I think it would not be unreasonable to expect all RN vessels to carry at least basic ASW/ mine avoidance sonar, alongside SSTD (even the next generation of OPVs)
By sacrificing what? Each ASW system will require ~5 more crews, at least. For 5 T31 and 8 OPVs, we need 75 more crew. In other words, we need to put nearly one T31 into extended readiness, I'm afraid?

<On OPV>
Submarine is very expensive and complicated weapon. If all OPVs are required to handle it in some sense, why not all OPV need to handle super-sonic ASM with Aster30?

History tells that submarine is a very tough target to kill, but by using air-asset, its threat can be significantly reduced. This is simply because modern submarine is very quiet, but it is very slow when being quiet.

Mine avoidance sonar can be there. It is compact and simple. But, I am not sure if it can "detect" mines well. Sending a REMUS pod before deploying there, or using USV-MCM drones to pre-survey the area, will do it much better? Not sure.

<on T31>
It is debatable I agree. But, I think adding CAPTAS-4CI (a compact version of CAPTAS-4) to 2 of the 5 T31s, will be better than adding a hull sonar to all 5 T31s. French FDI is a frigate specifically designed with, "normal (noisy) hull with very good sonar". France is an experienced Navy, so they know what they do, to some extent. at least. So. "big sonar on noisy ship" has some rationale.

If the "ping" sound is the same between CAPTAS-4 and CAPTAS-4CI, it can at least "pretend" to be a Type-26 from a distance, observed from a sub.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 13:28 <On OPV>
Submarine is very expensive and complicated weapon. If all OPVs are required to handle it in some sense, why not all OPV need to handle super-sonic ASM with Aster30?...
For me we are talking about a number of CAPTAS-1 PODs that can be rotated between OPV and future MCSLVs, along with trained crews. These ships can play a key part in a layered defence when coupled with MRAs, Merlin ASWs, static ASW detectors and ASW frigates. The reason why we aren't talking about AAW defence is because OPVs aren't supposed to be put into high risk areas.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 10:55 The problem with Wildcat based in Oman is there range and time to area...
What you need is a platform with a good sized flight deck able to provide forward support for helicopters, no need for a hangar as the maintenance can done more cheaply / effectively on land. If only we had such a platform...
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 09:06 I think you both over estimate the ASW abilities of the type 23 GP in the busy shipping lanes of the gulf and it is the job of the MPA's the locate identify and track subs in the gulf it will more than likely be a MPA that first see a swam attack building
Surely if the T31 eliminates the threat from fast attack surface craft with the 57mm/40mm/CAMM/Wildcat setup then the UK’s adversaries will rapidly switch to subsurface suicide drones to exploit the weakness?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Repulse wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 15:52
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 10:55 The problem with Wildcat based in Oman is there range and time to area...
What you need is a platform with a good sized flight deck able to provide forward support for helicopters, no need for a hangar as the maintenance can done more cheaply / effectively on land. If only we had such a platform...
Really if a type 31 is no good the a B2 with a single 30mm is suicide or murder by our own side even if we strap a pair of Phalanx on it as said a couple of containerized sonars for the type 31s would work well

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Poiuytrewq wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 15:53
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 09:06 I think you both over estimate the ASW abilities of the type 23 GP in the busy shipping lanes of the gulf and it is the job of the MPA's the locate identify and track subs in the gulf it will more than likely be a MPA that first see a swam attack building
Surely if the T31 eliminates the threat from fast attack surface craft with the 57mm/40mm/CAMM/Wildcat setup then the UK’s adversaries will rapidly switch to subsurface suicide drones to exploit the weakness?
they might but throwing some cheap boat with some nutters on at a ship is one thing using a Sub is next level and could lead to all there subs being hunted and attacked in a counter action

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 16:26
Repulse wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 15:52
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 10:55 The problem with Wildcat based in Oman is there range and time to area...
What you need is a platform with a good sized flight deck able to provide forward support for helicopters, no need for a hangar as the maintenance can done more cheaply / effectively on land. If only we had such a platform...
Really if a type 31 is no good the a B2 with a single 30mm is suicide or murder by our own side even if we strap a pair of Phalanx on it as said a couple of containerized sonars for the type 31s would work well
It would be suicide in a war scenario as would the T31 as currently fitted. However, I believe that a “OPV Plus/Max” with a couple of Wildcats are sufficient for any peacetime confrontation, leaving money and ships to focus on the war fighting strike groups.

Also to answer @Donaldsans question on personnel - yes I would take 4 war fighting T31s over 5 vulnerable T31s.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Repulse wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 17:19
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 16:26
Repulse wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 15:52
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 10:55 The problem with Wildcat based in Oman is there range and time to area...
What you need is a platform with a good sized flight deck able to provide forward support for helicopters, no need for a hangar as the maintenance can done more cheaply / effectively on land. If only we had such a platform...
Really if a type 31 is no good the a B2 with a single 30mm is suicide or murder by our own side even if we strap a pair of Phalanx on it as said a couple of containerized sonars for the type 31s would work well
It would be suicide in a war scenario as would the T31 as currently fitted. However, I believe that a “OPV Plus/Max” with a couple of Wildcats are sufficient for any peacetime confrontation, leaving money and ships to focus on the war fighting strike groups.

Also to answer @Donaldsans question on personnel - yes I would take 4 war fighting T31s over 5 vulnerable T31s.
Well the first T31 is expected to be ready in 2028, and the last one probably will be available by approx. 2031 - 2032. So we have around a decade to recruit enough RN staff that hopefully staffing won't be an issue when the 5th one is ready.

Then we hav to hope that RN Budget has improved enough by then that the term "Fitted For But Not With" is relegated to past tense usage. And that T31's have any potential VLS maxed out, along with a proper main gun fitted.....

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

The latest Defence Select Committee report, published on teh 14th of December this year, on the Royal Navy is very interesting. Whilst some of its members are derided on here the report has taken evidence from a broad and knowledgeable group of people and comes to some very sound conclusions. One of its finding is that the Royal Navy is obviously too small and needs more assets. What it recommends though are more mid to low capability platforms like the Rivers and T-31/32 as well as additional SSNs at some point in the future. It clearly states that the Royal Navy cannot effectively carry out the tasks is currently has let alone those additional one planned as part of the UK being a more globally active power.

Merely have a presence in a region is seem by some who submitted evidence as a poor use of resources, but with improvement in the capability of the platform conducting these operation the idea is viable.

A to current Warships they are seen as having a good self defence capability but lacking any real offensive power with which to influence an enemies navy. We would basically be always reacting to what the other side did, as they would have the initiative nearly all the time, and this situation must be remedied as a matter of priority. Waiting until the 2030s to receive a possible hypersonic AShM lack any logic. Instead we need an interim weapon system now that will be complimented by teh former at a later date. Both system must be compatible with the Mk41 VLS and possibly even the Sylver VLS as well. The initial use of deck canisters would be viable.

I recommend reading the report, it certainly doesn't pull any punches.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 22:01
Repulse wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 17:19
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 16:26
Repulse wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 15:52
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 10:55 The problem with Wildcat based in Oman is there range and time to area...
What you need is a platform with a good sized flight deck able to provide forward support for helicopters, no need for a hangar as the maintenance can done more cheaply / effectively on land. If only we had such a platform...
Really if a type 31 is no good the a B2 with a single 30mm is suicide or murder by our own side even if we strap a pair of Phalanx on it as said a couple of containerized sonars for the type 31s would work well
It would be suicide in a war scenario as would the T31 as currently fitted. However, I believe that a “OPV Plus/Max” with a couple of Wildcats are sufficient for any peacetime confrontation, leaving money and ships to focus on the war fighting strike groups.

Also to answer @Donaldsans question on personnel - yes I would take 4 war fighting T31s over 5 vulnerable T31s.
Well the first T31 is expected to be ready in 2028, and the last one probably will be available by approx. 2031 - 2032. So we have around a decade to recruit enough RN staff that hopefully staffing won't be an issue when the 5th one is ready.

Then we hav to hope that RN Budget has improved enough by then that the term "Fitted For But Not With" is relegated to past tense usage. And that T31's have any potential VLS maxed out, along with a proper main gun fitted.....
Better let the USN know there Constellation class will need a proper gun . If type 31 got say 16 Mk-41 , 8 x NSM and a containerized sonar they would be a good ship

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Lord Jim wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 01:18 …What it recommends though are more mid to low capability platforms like the Rivers and T-31/32…
What it says is:

The escort fleet needs to double in size by acquiring more low-end capability to carry out low end tasks, alongside ships capable of carrying out the Navy’s high-end warfighting commitments.
To me it means more lower end OPV/Sloops and more war fighting frigates. A marginal uplift in funds could easily mean that the RN ends up with 24 fully armed T45/T26/T31 warships by the mid 2030s. A similar fleet of 16 lower end Rivers/MCSLVs is also achievable in the current budget. This gives the RN a solid forward presence coupled with a significant war fighting capability.

If there is any money left, I would be looking to improve the RN war fighting capabilities in the Littoral Zone. This is where I would go for a UK “Buyan” equivalent, on this would include a larger caliber gun for NFGS.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 21 Dec 2021, 22:01Well the first T31 is expected to be ready in 2028, and the last one probably will be available by approx. 2031 - 2032. So we have around a decade to recruit enough RN staff that hopefully staffing won't be an issue when the 5th one is ready.
Hoping for better recruit and retention rate is good, but not guaranteed. RN was trying hard to improve its manning for long. I'm afraid the current "uplift" is mostly because of COVID.

Regaining of carrier strike, improvement in recruit system, increased threats of Russia and China commonly discussed, will make a good trend. But, I am not optimistic here. A few years ago, RN is manning only 12 out of 19 escorts. Now, the active ships looks not much increased since then (although sea-going days looks a bit improved). Still, RN is manning limited than hull number limited. This is fact. Even if RN/RFA got 1000 more member, as only half of them are on ship, another half on training/promotion/on-land-tasks, it means only 500 more crew. RN needs at least 350 more to re-activate HMS Bulwark? RFA also has some ship in extended readiness.

The NavyLookout article suggested for "more ammunition, more spare-parts, and more engineers" are much more important than "more hull". I think it is very true.

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