Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Repulse]

I think we need to drop the pretence that we need constabulary frigates and wake up and smell the coffee. War or prolonged sub-war is coming, we need every platform pulling its weight - upgrade the T31 requirements to match the need and get them in the water ready to fight.

Forget the T32, it’s a combination of the MCMLSV, another T26 (hopefully) and more T31s.

[Jensy]

I think we need to drop the pretence that we need constabulary frigates and wake up and smell the coffee. War or prolonged sub-war is coming, we need every platform pulling its weight - upgrade the T31 requirements to match the need and get them in the water ready to fight.

Forget the T32, it’s a combination of the MCMLSV, another T26 (hopefully) and more T31s.

Couldn't put it any better.

We've had 20 years of pissing about with 'blue sky' ship concepts and interpretations of a future, which has not necessarily played out. Type 26 is clearly a world beater but we can't afford enough to be the sole 'fleet workhorse'. Type 31 has lots of room and is based on an AAW frigate that delivers 32 cells of Mk.41, and 24 cells of ESSM. Our boat bay obsession aside, that seems plenty of scope for future growth.

As was being said on the River thread. We have a stabilisation platform with 5/5 already deployed.

[wargame_insomniac]

I think we need to drop the pretence that we need constabulary frigates and wake up and smell the coffee. War or prolonged sub-war is coming, we need every platform pulling its weight - upgrade the T31 requirements to match the need and get them in the water ready to fight.

Forget the T32, it’s a combination of the MCMLSV, another T26 (hopefully) and more T31s.

Without the T31 then RN will have to keep T23 General Purpose frigates in service for far longer than intended as we are still required to provide defence, patrolling EEZ, and HMDR for all our British Oversaes Territories: six groups of islands in Caribbean, five islands in South Atlantic and Gibralter.

And that is before we consider any commitments in Oman, Bahrain, Singapore, Brunei etc.

Don't get me wrong - I agree that T31 need to be upgunned and upgraded once main building work done. I would prefer a main gun at either 4.5" or 5.0" (I don;t know why T26 were changed to 5.0"). I hate FFBNW - I would want all ships of frigate size and above to have been maxed out with VLS Missiles and CIWS / DS-30M Mk II / 0.5" HMG for layered defence.

Ships will need a mixture of some longer ranged AAW and more shorter ranged AAW - especially if short ranged missiles can be quad packed like ESSM, as we are going to be in a numbers game if tensions flare with either Russia / China due to the large quantities of Anti-Ship Missiles they can throw at us.

Can we afford any more T26's given that their rumoured price of £1.25bn is the same as the total cost of all five T31's if the fixed price contract of just over £250m is achieved? We need numbers of escort hulls just as much as we need numbers of VLS AAW Missiles.

[Repulse]

wargame_insomniac, using T31s as real frigates rather than light forward based ones, gives a significant boost to the RNs fighting capabilities. As discussed elsewhere the B2s are sufficient given the broader priorities to be forward based carrying out constabulary/ flag waving activities. The T45/T26/T31 force would be sufficient to cover Kipion, FRE & TAPS.

The additional cost of a T26 is well below £1bn.

[Poiuytrewq]

Lots of information to digest here,

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... #heading-5

Will HMG accept the recommendations?

[Jdam]

My guess is that they will say tonnage is increasing

[Dobbo]

I hope so - they all look to reflect reality. Consider this comment:

“73. It is clear that the budget priorities of successive governments have delivered a fleet of porcupines (well defended herbivores).”

Ooof!

[RichardIC]

Lots of information to digest here,

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... #heading-5

Will HMG accept the recommendations?

Never happened yet so not expecting it to start now.

[Repulse]

This struck a cord with me:

195. Professor Till recommended that the Navy consider acquiring vessels like a corvette
or light frigate equipped with heavy weaponry

If you want to play in the Littoral's then I'm really not clear how a small number of larger / lightly armed ships is going to win the day.

[SW1]

Reads like a Phoenix think tank puff piece

[Tempest414]

Maybe the way forward is to add to the patrol / escort fleet like so

4 x B2's making a class of 9
1 x type 26 making a class of 9
1 x type 31 making a class of 6
6 x type 32 making a class of 6

[Anthony58]

Thanks Tempest414, my adds in brackets.

4 x B2's making a class of 9 (a stretched variant with a hanger for Wildcat/NH90 plus UAV, camcopter size).
1 x type 26 making a class of 9
1 x type 31 making a class of 6 (spending an extra £200m -£300m per ship)
6 x type 32 making a class of 6 (or building at Rosyth, a follow on class of Type 26 under license)

Existing 6 Type 45 (upgraded), replaced from 2038 by 6-9 Type 83 (on a 18 month build cycle)

A couple of billion pounds for missiles for Type 26/Type 31/32.

The only problem other than the above funded over 20 years, is do we have the extra personnel to crew the ships?

[Scimitar54]

Neither of the above posted proposals increases the Escort Fleet by more than 50%. The Defence Select Committee are saying that the Escort Fleet needs to DOUBLE. They are absolutely correct in that, which has been apparent to those without blinkers for a considerable time. The question is, will HMG fund these vessels?

[serge750]

Even a 50% increase would be fantastic !! maybe they are playing the bargaining game - we need double but 50% would be ok....

I would like to see, IF it was going to happen accelerating & increasing T26 ( preferably full fat ASW ) to 1 a year at least 4 extra ships before the T45 replacement comes along, & increasing the replacement T45 to at least 8, doubling the order for T31 for getting hulls in the water asap ( with HMS & 8 x mk 41 etc ) or doubling the order for T32... that would keep the Scottish yards busy for a while !

Also try to encourage recruitment - even though newer ships require less crew but will still need more sailors & a rather large increase in defence spending

[Tempest414]

Neither of the above posted proposals increases the Escort Fleet by more than 50%. The Defence Select Committee are saying that the Escort Fleet needs to DOUBLE. They are absolutely correct in that, which has been apparent to those without blinkers for a considerable time. The question is, will HMG fund these vessels?

you are right and I would follow type 26 with a fleet of 9 type 83's

[inch]

The government aren't bothered,no votes in it for them so no it's not going to happen ,and the MOD handling of programs etc makes you wonder if the MOD are fit for purpose tbh ,yes we need all the recommendations stated implicated ,but fat chance ,too busy wasting money on things that are ultimately not as important as the future defence of the realm

[inch]

Implemented even

[wargame_insomniac]

Neither of the above posted proposals increases the Escort Fleet by more than 50%. The Defence Select Committee are saying that the Escort Fleet needs to DOUBLE. They are absolutely correct in that, which has been apparent to those without blinkers for a considerable time. The question is, will HMG fund these vessels?

you are right and I would follow type 26 with a fleet of 9 type 83's

Sounds great but that is unlikely given that expectation that T83's will be much bigger than T45's, possibly even Cruiser sized (using comparison of Ticonderoga size vs Arleigh Burkes).

I reckon we are more likely to get 4*T83's, which would mean the need for getting even more frigates.

[Tempest414]

Neither of the above posted proposals increases the Escort Fleet by more than 50%. The Defence Select Committee are saying that the Escort Fleet needs to DOUBLE. They are absolutely correct in that, which has been apparent to those without blinkers for a considerable time. The question is, will HMG fund these vessels?

you are right and I would follow type 26 with a fleet of 9 type 83's

Sounds great but that is unlikely given that expectation that T83's will be much bigger than T45's, possibly even Cruiser sized (using comparison of Ticonderoga size vs Arleigh Burkes).

I reckon we are more likely to get 4*T83's, which would mean the need for getting even more frigates.

If the RN / MOD were to make the mistake of trying to build Cruiser's and allowing the number to drop below 6 I would say the idea should be scrapped and 10 more type 26's should be built 9 x ASW and 9 x AAW the fact is we need to make sure there is no fewer than 8 type 83' and 9 would be better

This being said as long as we had 21 Frigates & 9 Destroyers I would love nothing more than a class of 3 Cruisers fitted with 3 x 5" guns , 4 x 57mm , 110 VLS capable of ABM , wide area defence , long range sea and land attack task to hold the littoral or defend the RN Battle group

[Dobbo]

Thing is, the report basically recommended three things for the surface escorts (not including getting a move on with T45 PIP) which were:

1 - across the board they need an offensive missile capability (land attack and ASuW)
2 - the T45 (and by extension the T83) needs an ABM capability.
3 - we need more of them and better availability.

None of these things are solved without a massive budgetary commitment. Ideally you’d have 8x T83 and T26, and 10xT31/32 with the full suite of capabilities. That seems to me to be a realistic aspiration, but won’t come cheap.

[Poiuytrewq]

…type 26's should be built 9 x ASW and 9 x AAW

Exactly, this must be the preferred option. Whatever happened to the holy grail of commonality?

RN must start to transition away from a unsatisfactory number of highly specialised escorts and create must needed strength in depth which can withstand a realistic rate of attrition in a conflict scenario.

This should have been done 10 years ago but shredding the UK’s naval fleet was the order of the day back then.

[SW1]

…type 26's should be built 9 x ASW and 9 x AAW

Exactly, this must be the preferred option. Whatever happened to the holy grail of commonality?

RN must start to transition away from a unsatisfactory number of highly specialised escorts and create must needed strength in depth which can withstand a realistic rate of attrition in a conflict scenario.

This should have been done 10 years ago but shredding the UK’s naval fleet was the order of the day back then.

The sacrificed escorts on the alter of carrier strike no one forced them too that’s how they choose to allocate resource think it was lord west that did it no point crying about it now.

[Repulse]

Thing is, the report basically recommended three things for the surface escorts (not including getting a move on with T45 PIP) which were:

1 - across the board they need an offensive missile capability (land attack and ASuW)
2 - the T45 (and by extension the T83) needs an ABM capability.
3 - we need more of them and better availability.

None of these things are solved without a massive budgetary commitment. Ideally you’d have 8x T83 and T26, and 10xT31/32 with the full suite of capabilities. That seems to me to be a realistic aspiration, but won’t come cheap.

I would say that #1 and #2 are the top priority, problem is with the T31/T32 the MOD/RN is trying to address #3 and ignoring the other two.

[Poiuytrewq]

The Defence Select Committee are saying that the Escort Fleet needs to DOUBLE.

Easier said than done….

However,

- The T26 drumbeat could be accelerated substantially if BAE could be authorised to build at the most efficient pace.

- The T31 programme could swiftly transition across to building credible GP frigates with an acceptable suite of offensive/defensive weapons and sensors.

- A third programme could be initiated to produce a class of long range OPV’s with immediate effect based on the RB2’s. Add a hanger, 57mm and space amidships for ISO’s and/or POD’s (like BAE’s Avenger concept) and RN would have a low cost and versatile patrol vessel for low risk environments.

- As a temporary measure until more suitable escorts are commissioned the RB2’s could be upgraded with Artisan, 57mm, 2x 30mm plus UAV and Captas 1 or 2. CAMM contained in PODs could also be added if required.

The big problem with significantly increasing the size of the escort fleet remains manpower but recruitment could be supercharged very rapidly if the political will was there.

The only thing stopping any of this happening is the Treasury and an unwillingness to spend 3% of UK GDP on defence.

[Dobbo]

Thing is, the report basically recommended three things for the surface escorts (not including getting a move on with T45 PIP) which were:

1 - across the board they need an offensive missile capability (land attack and ASuW)
2 - the T45 (and by extension the T83) needs an ABM capability.
3 - we need more of them and better availability.

None of these things are solved without a massive budgetary commitment. Ideally you’d have 8x T83 and T26, and 10xT31/32 with the full suite of capabilities. That seems to me to be a realistic aspiration, but won’t come cheap.

I would say that #1 and #2 are the top priority, problem is with the T31/T32 the MOD/RN is trying to address #3 and ignoring the other two.

From the perspective of surface escorts, Resolving #1 and #2 delivers the sovereign carrier strike capability without reliance on allies (NB - the other elements include Fleet Solid Stores, sorting out the Air Wing, and the numbers and availability of SSNs).

These should be dealt with by weapons programmes but this feels to me like it plays into jumping into bed with the American systems.