Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Ron5
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Nice to see a programme actually delivering the goods on time and budget. Great to see though.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Lord Jim wrote: 04 Dec 2021, 16:07 Nice to see a programme actually delivering the goods on time and budget. Great to see though.

Did you go through FMS or government to vendor direct

I have noticed that when the ADF buys through FMS it’s pretty straight forward but when we buy Euro it nearly always seems to bite us on the arse MRTT seems to be the exception

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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I think we went through FMS for the Apache rebuild programme.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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I don't think anyone has ever really complained about the FMS process. It's insanely straight forward. The US gov buys it like it would for its own force and presto add a fee and bam done.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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sunstersun wrote: 06 Dec 2021, 00:38 I don't think anyone has ever really complained about the FMS process. It's insanely straight forward. The US gov buys it like it would for its own force and presto add a fee and bam done.
You think wrong. There have been complaints about it's process and high cost. It's used mostly because the buyer country either has no procurement process or has one that's even less efficient and more expensive (cough, UK, cough). Plus, of course, the knowledge of US methods, law, industry etc.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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It does make the paper work easier, ut you rite a bigger cheque as a result.


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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Now, suddenly, they are in a hurry (the Apache fleet is perfectly operational, and will be for a number of years). But buy American means buy also American weapons
... have we (not :shh: ) seen that with the F-35

JPO means Joint between the US branches of defence forces (only); the intl partners are there just to contribute to the bills.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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What capability gap? We still have stocks of Hellfire don't we. Couldn't we have kept using those whilst waiting for Brimstone 3 integration. False economy and a bad decision in my mind.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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We were never going to win exports for brimstone in Apache. Brimstone best selling point is it's optimisation for fast air. Hopefully the Germans, French and Pole's will finally commit to buying them as they don't have the luxury of developing their own in 10 years time.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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It’s not about export wins,it similar logistics across services, increased volume leading to reduced cost, access to development funding across services, and national resilience in expendables. We don’t make hellfire or what they’ve selected, we do manufacture brimstone we can flex its production as required exports are a bonus.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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SW1 wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 17:59 It’s not about export wins,it similar logistics across services, increased volume leading to reduced cost,
Yes, I wonder if the agency for development and purchasing still has these Capability Directors (seconded from the Forces) that were meant to address these synergies (in deciding which capabilty, overall, would be the best fit and of best value)?
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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We didn't have to go with the US missile either, we could have joined the users of the Spike family as the IDF uses variants of their Spike to equip its Apaches, so few if any integration costs for the MoD. We already use Extractor which can be loaded onto the Apache and Spike-LR2 would be a very good weapon to install on any IFV we bring into service. The family could cover all levels of ATGW usage, so a replacement for Javelin which is a generation behind, and is in its ER2 form the only networked ATGW currently in service, making it a good Overwatch weapon system. Spike is rapidly becoming the most popular ATGW in NATO with many nations adopting it and it is made in Europe as well.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Lord Jim wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 01:46 We already use Extractor which can be loaded onto the Apache
Can be loaded on Wildcat... but is there a precedent with Apache?
Lord Jim wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 01:46 it is made in Europe as well
Sales companies (Switzerland, Lux...) do not make stuff. They just things make up, and provide a smoke screen for those buyers who pretend (to their voters) that Israeli stuff is not in play.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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The Israeli Air Force have the option to equip their Apaches with various members of the Spike Family. They initally used Hellfire but developed the Spike family to be superior in guidance and range to name but two categories. Spike-MR and Spike-LR are manufactured in Europe, Germany I believe though it may be Poland. It was one of the key requirements for a number of NATO countries to adopt the missile family.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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(Forces News) 13th July 2022
A new Apache AH-64 attack helicopter is headed for the British Army, offering a full-colour, bigger picture of the battlefield and improved ways of affecting it.

This newly operational E model has a top speed of 186 mph, a new software overhaul to allow for greater target acquisition and is expecting new 'Romeo' variant Hellfire missiles.

Fifty of the new models are set to join the Army by 2025, with nearly £300m invested in the first delivery of the aircraft so far.


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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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UK would do themselves a big favor scraping attack hellos and redirecting it towards drones.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Scrapping them would be a mistake, augmenting them with drones would be a better idea.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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BB85 wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 17:32 We were never going to win exports for brimstone in Apache.
I disagree with this.

There are multiple Apache E users who will also be using Brimstone (UK, Poland, Saudi Arabia and Qatar). Having a munition that could work across multiple platforms is a huge bonus. But crucially Brimstone 3 massively outranges Hellfire, JAGM AND Spike NLOS.

If there is a lesson learnt from Ukraine its that AH will not survive in a peer to peer environment without longer ranged munitions.

I'd also note that it is cheaper than Spike NLOS, with a guidance method that will actually work in a heavy EW environment beyond 15km (because thats the length of the fibre spool, after that Spike NLOS is RF guided, which is eminently jammable...). It's also going to be cheaper than JAGM MR, which is the only competitor in terms of range (although it only exists in CGI and model form at present).

Integrating Brimstone also potentially opens the door for a far longer ranged, air launched version of LPS in due course....80km+....commonality with the RA (and inevitably the RN).
SW1 wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 17:59 It’s not about export wins,it similar logistics across services, increased volume leading to reduced cost, access to development funding across services, and national resilience in expendables. We don’t make hellfire or what they’ve selected, we do manufacture brimstone we can flex its production as required exports are a bonus.
Spot on
ArmChairCivvy wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 10:10 Can be loaded on Wildcat... but is there a precedent with Apache?
Wildcat for South Korea. Apache for Israel and in trials in the US. Reduced weapon load though...and hugely expensive.
Lord Jim wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 01:46 We already use Extractor which can be loaded onto the Apache and Spike-LR2 would be a very good weapon to install on any IFV we bring into service.
Exactor is on the way out. Royal Artillery is already talking about replacement with LPS. So why buy in to an old solution?

It has also never been entirely satisfactory. With serious concerns around durability, cost and the firing platform.

But beyond all that....do we honestly wish to deal with Israel on any munitions after Ukraine? To actually equip ourselves with munitions from a country that will actively prevent transfer to a country that the UK see's in desperate need is the absolute height of folly. I'd note that Elbit were recently thrown off a major contract with the RN over sovereignty and security concerns...
Lord Jim wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 01:46 The family could cover all levels of ATGW usage, so a replacement for Javelin which is a generation behind, and is in its ER2 form the only networked ATGW currently in service, making it a good Overwatch weapon system. Spike is rapidly becoming the most popular ATGW in NATO with many nations adopting it and it is made in Europe as well.
I expect a large number of those users deeply regret their choice now...as they're unable to send any to help the Ukrainian's. Most of European NATO and Canada have been prevented from sending any ATGM's to Ukraine as a result, with the US and UK having to pick up the slack with Javelin as a result.

People really need to understand that Israel is neither an Ally of the West nor a reliable supplier...

As for ground launched AT weapon's we've got ASM, LASM, NLAW, Javelin, Spike NLOS and soon to have Brimstone 3. With the potential of LPS in the near future. What more do we actually need? You could argue for a loitering munition like Switchblade 600, or a missile with man in the loop (but the frontrunner there would not be Spike, it would be MMP which is newer, made by MBDA with substantial work in Bolton).

We need more onshoring of munitions, not reliance on a German factory either...
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Excellent rant. Dickheads that didn't order Brimstone for Apache need firing or pensions reduced. Probably sitting in the Treasury as we speak.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Or perhaps they are sitting on a Caribbean beach enjoying their windfall.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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The MOD often seem to make bizarre decisions, unfortunately we never hear by whom and why such decisions are made. While I'm sure the decisions made are sometimes justified the unnecessary secrecy, that seems to be the default setting, doesn't help convincing those of us on the outside that some nefarious business is not behind it. Oh and I for one am heartily sick of the MOD using Commercial Sensitivity as an excuse.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Ron5 wrote: 08 Mar 2023, 13:18 Excellent rant. Dickheads that didn't order Brimstone for Apache need firing or pensions reduced. Probably sitting in the Treasury as we speak.
You could add in the people at the AAC who are looking at APKWS...

Nothing against APKWS, I've said before its one of the most elegant weapon engineering solutions I've ever seen. Cheap and effective too...pretty much perfect. But not when its attached to a Hydra 70....when we have tens of thousands of CRV7 in stock. All we need is to get BAE to make an APKWS that will fit CRV7, which given the calibre is the same is likely just to be the threads on the warhead and rocket motor...a few test shots later and we're good to go.
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