River Class (OPV) (RN)

[donald_of_tokyo]

The question is what’s HMG are trying to achieve in the Pacific for a military perspective.Hard to see at present beyond intelligence gathering. Is there a capacity building role certainly not with any of the major regional powers. Rapid reinforcement of a allie in face of Chinese aggression possibly but what does that look like.

Don’t really see what the rivers achieve out there.

?? I thought you answered your question by yourself.

"Intelligence gathering."

Information you get with having your good friends there.

VS

Information you get with having your good friends there + and going there, working there, directly making friends with people there BY YOURSELF

More than an order of magnitude intelligence can be gathered for sure. Such information and mutual relation is critically important, especially when UK is thinking to form an LRG, and/or send a T31 GP frigate there in near future.

(See https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com ... es-in.html)

[SW1]

The question is what’s HMG are trying to achieve in the Pacific for a military perspective.Hard to see at present beyond intelligence gathering. Is there a capacity building role certainly not with any of the major regional powers. Rapid reinforcement of a allie in face of Chinese aggression possibly but what does that look like.

Don’t really see what the rivers achieve out there.

?? I thought you answered your question by yourself.

"Intelligence gathering."

Information you get with having your good friends there.

VS

Information you get with having your good friends there + and going there, working there, directly making friends with people there BY YOURSELF

More than an order of magnitude intelligence can be gathered for sure. Such information and mutual relation is critically important, especially when UK is thinking to form an LRG, and/or send a T31 GP frigate there in near future.

(See https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com ... es-in.html)

Well if it’s intelligence gathering then is the rivers really what should be sent, does a ship even make sense.

How do pacific nations do intelligence gathering in the Atlantic or European area?

I think thinpinstripedline argument is very thin.

[Tempest414]

Plan to up-arm only 2 hulls;
1: bow gun
- replace the bow 30mm gun by borrowing the two 40mm Mk.4 turrets for "the 5th T31". (see https://www.navyrecognition.com/images/ ... em_top.jpg)
- need 3P-round capability. If possible, reuse the current EO-FCS. If not, again borrow 2 of them from "the 5th T31".
2: Sensor upgrade
- keep the Terma Scanter 4100 2D radar for long-range scan,
- but add a small UAV-detection 3D radar available COTS (typically with 10-20 km range) (e.g. Blighter Surveillance Systems Ltd UK, A400 Series https://www.blighter.com/wp-content/upl ... asheet.pdf )
3: add Thales LMM 2x triple launcher
- Lightweight multiple launcher, controlled via RM team (see https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defau ... 1600px.png)
- locate one mount at the flying bridge, and another at either side of the waist.
4: Locate another side of the waist with BAE RHIB-USV

Some things here for me

1 : Fit a Bushmaster IV 40mm to the existing DSM Mk2 mount allowing the use of 3P rounds if this works upgrade the hole fleet ( To me this would also make a big difference to both T-23 and 45 )

2 : add 2 x manual 20mm

3 : If we were to fit LMM then fit them to the new DS40M mount above

4: I do like the idea of the small 3d radar

5 : Add a containerized UAV system with radar and EO for eyes OTH

6 : Carry 8 to 10 Hero 120 loiter giving limited OTH strike ( 40 KM )

For me this can all be fitted without affecting the sea going days

[Poiuytrewq]

I think thinpinstripedline argument is very thin.

I agree.

What can an RB2 achieve that a Bay or a Wave cannot?

If RN cannot spare any T23's for the deployment then surely the same will apply for the T31's as they decommission /commission like for like. In which case the RB2's will be forward based in Singapore until at least 2030 when the T32's start to arrive.

As it is very unlikely the RB1's will remain in service until 2030 what is going to fill the gap when the RB1's decommission?

Relying on increased availability of the new Frigate classes to bridge the gap appears rather optimistic if that is current planning.

If the T23 ASW's/T26's are going to cover the CVF's and TAPs primarily then five T31's will have to both both LSG's, FRE and APT(S) plus NATO commitments. Planning to forward base two out of five T31's in Singapore before the T32's arrive appears very unlikely.

Therefore it looks like the RB2's will be forward based in Singapore for at least a decade unless Government policy changes.

Personally I think there are better options.

[abc123]

I agree with ABC123, keep all the Rivers for EEZ protection, Falklands and Gibraltar and come up with an alternative solution for vessels to be forward based in Singapore.

That’s ultimately what will happen with the T31s. But agree all of this could have been prevented if a B3 was built for the last two. If the MOD wasn’t in the “anything but BAE” mode at the time a Cutlass class could have been the natural T31 evolution.

This would be a meaningful contribution rather than sending a couple of OPV's as a token gesture.

The biggest threat in the region is an aggressive encroachment into allied EEZs via the PLAN, or more likely its “fishing fleet” or other non state actors - perfect role for an OPV along with the other ones mentioned previously.

The biggest threat in the region is quick rise of China. And two OPVs will neither stop not slow that down.
To be clear, neither would the whole RN. But, CVBG or at least a couple of proper escort ships that can defend itself and maybe even attack, would mean SOMETHING.
Two Rivers don't mean anything to anyone, and at the same time, they are not fulfilling it's original task- protection of UKs EEZ and maybe FIGS/WIGS. They are simply pathetic.

[Caribbean]

So you would like to replace two small platforms, for which we are available for use and suitable for the task, with two of the most heavily used RFA platforms? The Bays are fully committed, between the RM trials, the Gulf and Caribbean, with Wave Knight being the Kipion fleet ready refueller. I suppose we could haul Wave Ruler out of mothballs

[SW1]

It’s that narrative of suddenly now the navy wants to play in the pacific again it’s suddenly now the age on enlightenment and engagement I find the hardest to work out. The UK has maintained a military garrison in the Pacific region for many decades mainly the army of late with training and exercises and engagement with others in the area happens.

So the question of what are we achieving with two rivers or intend to do militarily has not been really been set out. There is plenty of security tasks we could undertaking much closer to home. I repeat the statement from the Integrated review Russia is seen as the direct threat to UK. If the idea is for intelligence gathering then should not it more realistically be space based, or should it perhaps be long range airborne unmanned systems with intel sensors, or even the use of HMS Enterprise with the data shared with allies in the 5 powers and 5 years arena as it undoubtedly already is. Have the rivers had surveillance systems added and enhanced data or communications systems if not they seem an odd choice.

[donald_of_tokyo]

How do pacific nations do intelligence gathering in the Atlantic or European area?

There are no nation like UK in Asia. UK historically has interests world wide. Asian nation does not. Just it.

I think thinpinstripedline argument is very thin.

Disagree, sorry.

What can an RB2 achieve that a Bay or a Wave cannot?

Two River B2 with 110 crew in total, in x1.5 rotation can achieve 600 sea-going days. A Bay or Wave with 110 crew can achieve, 180-200 days at most? More than 3 times difference. Major difference.

Of course, River B2 cannot do HADR better than Bay. Cannot replenish other ship as Waves does. So what? Bays and Waves are doing it in the other theater. Are you proposing that the Tide-class with QE CVTF shall be replaced with two River B2s?

Or, you think these River B2 shall be disbanded to re-active the Wave (not manned) to provide oiler support at Asia? It will be one idea. But, the region has many LSDs (better for HADR) and does not need so many oiler (Not many blue water navies, and RAN and RNZN have their own oilers). At least, I see no strong merit of a Wave which can be at sea only 180-200 days a year, over the two River B2 providing 600 sea-going days a year. What is it?

If RN cannot spare any T23's for the deployment then surely the same will apply for the T31's as they decommission /commission like for like. In which case the RB2's will be forward based in Singapore until at least 2030 when the T32's start to arrive.
As it is very unlikely the RB1's will remain in service until 2030 what is going to fill the gap when the RB1's decommission?

I think differently.
- T31 is new = needs less maintenance than old T23.
- T31 is simpler (thanks to "no sonar", "only 12 CAMM", "no Mk.41 VLS" and "no big gun") = needs even less maintenance than complex T23.
So, replacing 5 T23GPs with 5 T31 will enable additional assets to be sent forward. 15-20 years later, when T31 gets old, it is another srtory.

If the T23 ASW's/T26's are going to cover the CVF's and TAPs primarily then five T31's will have to both both LSG's, FRE and APT(S) plus NATO commitments. Planning to forward base two out of five T31's in Singapore before the T32's arrive appears very unlikely.

Maybe or may be not. I guess the 5 T31 will be
- 0.5-1 for FRE (sometimes shared with TAPs T26 and/or EEZ-Fishery River B2, as is now done).
- 1 for LSG-west, sometimes with NATO fleet
- 1 for LSG-east, sometimes as FPDA obligation
- 1 for Persian Gulf (Kipion),
- and 1-1.5 in maintenance.

Personally I think there are better options.

Interested to listen to your option, actually. I agree there can be better way. I am just saying "2 River B2 in Indo-Pacific" looks like NOT a bad idea for me. Never saying it is the best idea.

So the question of what are we achieving with two rivers or intend to do militarily has not been really been set out. There is plenty of security tasks we could undertaking much closer to home. I repeat the statement from the Integrated review Russia is seen as the direct threat to UK.

That's surely one idea. Retreat from east, concentrate on west, and become a regional power, not a global power. It is reasonable, I agree.

If the idea is for intelligence gathering then should not it more realistically be space based, or should it perhaps be long range airborne unmanned systems with intel sensors, or even the use of HMS Enterprise with the data shared with allies in the 5 powers and 5 years arena as it undoubtedly already is. Have the rivers had surveillance systems added and enhanced data or communications systems if not they seem an odd choice.

No big objection, but intelligence gathering with sending River B2s has different aspect to those done by long range airborne unmanned systems. I think you are comparing very different tasks as the same one. UAV (or satellite) will tell you "what" is going there. River B2 showing flag and making many friends in the region will tell you "why" it is happening, or what will happen in future. Surely BOTH is needed, not only one.

[Tempest414]

I think we should forget the idea of the B2's taking over from the B1's and look to develop both there on board & off board systems to allow global patrol in low to Mid threat regions along side the type 31's

[Lord Jim]

I personally would prefer to see the B1 and B2 Rivers acting as region "Flagships for joint agency flotillas of ships of varying sizes with the UK's EEZ, as against sending two out east as the Royal Navy's new "Far East Squadron". They have the size and accommodation to the well suited to the role and the B2s being able to act as a forward base for a helicopter or a carrier for UAVs are also very useful capabilities.

[Tempest414]

I personally would prefer to see the B1 and B2 Rivers acting as region "Flagships for joint agency flotillas of ships of varying sizes with the UK's EEZ, as against sending two out east as the Royal Navy's new "Far East Squadron". They have the size and accommodation to the well suited to the role and the B2s being able to act as a forward base for a helicopter or a carrier for UAVs are also very useful capabilities.

Given that HMG/T and the MOD knew that all the B2's would be deployed overseas it again shows poor vision in getting rid of HMS Clyde. Having the 4 B1's in home waters would have been a good move

[Tempest414]

I think thinpinstripedline argument is very thin.

I agree.

What can an RB2 achieve that a Bay or a Wave cannot?

If RN cannot spare any T23's for the deployment then surely the same will apply for the T31's as they decommission /commission like for like. In which case the RB2's will be forward based in Singapore until at least 2030 when the T32's start to arrive.

As it is very unlikely the RB1's will remain in service until 2030 what is going to fill the gap when the RB1's decommission?

Relying on increased availability of the new Frigate classes to bridge the gap appears rather optimistic if that is current planning.

If the T23 ASW's/T26's are going to cover the CVF's and TAPs primarily then five T31's will have to both both LSG's, FRE and APT(S) plus NATO commitments. Planning to forward base two out of five T31's in Singapore before the T32's arrive appears very unlikely.

Therefore it looks like the RB2's will be forward based in Singapore for at least a decade unless Government policy changes.

Personally I think there are better options.

If we look at this as steps

Step 1 : yearly 6 month deployments to the region
Step 2 : full time deployment of OPV's
step 3 : full time deployment of a LRG ( 1 x Bay , 1 x Escort) + 2 OPV's
step 4 : Grow the LRG to 1 x LHD , 1 x Wave , 2 x Escorts + 2 OPV's ( For LHD put in what you like )

Step 1 has been ticked step 2 is now starting step 3 is in hand and step 4 lets hope

[Repulse]

step 4 : Grow the LRG to 1 x LHD , 1 x Wave , 2 x Escorts + 2 OPV's ( For LHD put in what you like )

I don’t believe the strategy is (nor should it be) to create the modern equivalent of war fighting Forces A, I or Z EoS.

The UK naval strategy seems to be lower level forward presence (OPVs, MHCs, Sloops / Light Frigates and auxiliary based LRGs), backed by global Strike Groups and SSNs.

For me forward presence should probably be a common MHPC class and an Ellida MRSS class built in volume. I actually think this is where RN thinking is also.

[Tempest414]

As I should of said for step 4 put what you like

[SW1]

friends in the region will tell you "why

You don’t find out why sailing round the ogin you find out the why by getting into communications or by being were decisions are taken in capitals.

There are no nation like UK in Asia. UK historically has interests world wide. Asian nation does not. Just it.

The UK has had historic links across the world is still does but that is different to military need worldwide, uk dependent territories consist of a US airbase in Diego Garcia and 50 inhabitants of the Pitcairn Islands which are 7000nm from Singapore. I would guarantee more people in the UK have experience of Electronic devices, cameras, cars or have been on trains from Japanese or Korean company’s than people in Japan or Korea have with UK products. There is even talk of Korean armoured vehicles and artillery making it into the British army.

While there is plenty of diplomatic links and sharing of intelligence there isn’t much we can add to a region where our allies have armed forces just as capable and just as well equipped as ours. North Korea and China are the two biggest security concerns in the region and sending two rivers does nothing to counter such threats. The single biggest thing we can do for our Pacific allies is to ensure the security of the euro Atlantic area and to share as much technological, diplomatic and intelligence information between us to enhance all our security.

[Tempest414]

I still feel that we should be looking to form a CANZUK battle group made up of

1 x Carrier ( UK )
1 x LHD ( A )
2 x Bay class ( 1 A and 1 UK )
3 x Destroyers ( 1 A and 2 UK)
9 x Frigates ( 3 C , 3 A , 2 UK & 1 NZ
4 Aux ( 2 UK , 1 C , 1 NZ )

I would be pushing Australia and Canada to get 12 F-35b's each this would allow the carrier airwing to be made up of 30 jets 10 from each country . This group should come together every 2 years

[serge750]

Would be good to see F35b in Oz & Cananadian airforces & operate from the QEC

[Tempest414]

For me forward presence should probably be a common MHPC class and an Ellida MRSS class built in volume. I actually think this is where RN thinking is also.

If we say the type 31 is going to take over from the two Rivers in the Indo-Pac and the type 23 in the Gulf that would leave two type 31's one in maintenance and one for FRE this in turn means three Rivers are needed for FIGS , AP/N and the Med this would leave 2 for home waters when the B1's stand down so the questions are

With the B1's being 20 years old next year how long can they keep going ?

If type 32 follows type 31 based on A140 how will this help the OPV ( Maybe able to release the River from the Med meaning 3 Rivers in home waters )

If type 32 is taking over from the MCM's how will they work as frigates if not what is taking over from the MCM fleet

For me the RN has dropped the ball and we need 8 or more 100 meter MHPC and as much as I would like a clean sheet design a 105 meter River B3 could be made to work

As for the MRSS I am all for them replacing the 3 Bay's , 2 Waves and Argus giving the RFA 3 x SSS , 5 x MRSS and 4 Tankers however the 2 LPD's should be replaced with another flat top

[Scimitar54]

at least 2 x more Flat Tops!

[donald_of_tokyo]

With the B1's being 20 years old next year how long can they keep going ?

Good point. To my understanding, only two River B1s are used for EEZ/Fishery patrol in British water (the third one is used for sea Cadet). Three River B1 were built to meet to the fishery needs in ~2005, but later this was halved. Then, HMS Severn was sent to Carib on 2015.

This means, if the two River B2 to be sent to Singapore (?) comes back to Britain after T31 commissioning, all three River B1 will become redundant, and thus will be basically disbanded without replacement, I guess.

This means, 3 River B1 and 12 MCMVs will disappear = provide money slot. Significant fraction of this will go into MCM drone systems (of course), but some will remain, but I think this is exactly where "T32 program cost" are expected to come from.

Personally, I am not a fan of T32 being a frigate, and many "other" options can come into my mind... (such as MHC like or smallish-LSD like hulls), but I guess River OPV thread is not the appropriate place to discuss it.

[Tempest414]

Personally, I am not a fan of T32 being a frigate, and many "other" options can come into my mind... (such as MHC like or smallish-LSD like hulls), but I guess River OPV thread is not the appropriate place to discuss it.

With all the B2's deployed overseas I feel the the B1's will be around for another 5 to 6 years.

As for the above I would prefer to see 10 x 105 meter River B3's laid out like so then five more frigates

Sea Giraffe 3d radar
good CMS
filgth deck and working deck for unmanned kit
1 x57mm , 1 x 40mm , 2 x 12.7mm , 4 x miniguns
crew 45 or 60 working 1.5 plus mission crew
6000 Nm range

10 ships like so stationed 5 each side of Suez would become the workhorses and eyes and ears of the RN around the world

However this wont happen as type 32 is all about keeping Babcock going after the fast turn around of type 31

[Repulse]

We are way off course of the thread, but ultimately the RN is heading towards a fleet of 5 B2 Rivers and 5 assorted Survey Ships by late 2020s.

I personally think that a class of 12 evolved Rivers for the MHPC role would be a good idea replace the Echo class, some of the capability gap left from the MCM decommissioning, and ultimately the B3 River class should be started in this timeframe.

[Scimitar54]

Err. Doy you mean the B3 ?

[Repulse]

Err. Doy you mean the B3 ?

Yep have fixed

[Tempest414]

HMS Severn in new WWII Western approaches paint job looks great