Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

This is all pretty damning to be honest. One does begin to wonder if and indeed where a line should be drawn as the current situation is increasingly unacceptable. All stakeholders seem to share at least some of the blame, no one is coming out of this squeaky clean that's for sure.

One wonders if, in the land of miracles, BAE could emerge with a fresh CV90 offer, riding to save the day with a quick to turn around unicorn proposal? One can dream right?

Would be quite a PR coup in the face of their critics - C'mon BAE get cracking!

[Lord Jim]

Where once there was BAe, there will now be Rheinmetall to manage our future AFV programmes. We need a user/industry think tank and design team set up somewhere, jointly funded that is able to build full scale prototypes to test theories and increase innovation. This is our last chance to build up and maintain a level of AFV design, manufacturing and support infrastructure. This site would also be responsible for all modification and overhaul work so that the site is not totally dependant on overhaul work, and provide greater security to its surpliers.

[RunningStrong]

One wonders if, in the land of miracles, BAE could emerge with a fresh CV90 offer, riding to save the day with a quick to turn around unicorn proposal? One can dream right?

Would be quite a PR coup in the face of their critics - C'mon BAE get cracking!

Which BAE?

Rheinmetall BAE systems land may be delivering CR3, but they have no corporate reach-back to CV90.

So you'd want an overseas business with no UK presence putting in a proposal?

[tomuk]

Where once there was BAe

If we go back to when what are now Boxer and Ajax were conceived Vickers, Alvis and GKN were still in the armoured vehicle business.

Alternate reality
GKN Boxer and Alvis CV90

[ArmChairCivvy]

So you'd want an overseas business with no UK presence putting in a proposal?

Beggars can't be choosers

[mr.fred]

Where once there was BAe

If we go back to when what are now Boxer and Ajax were conceived Vickers, Alvis and GKN were still in the armoured vehicle business.

Alternate reality
GKN Boxer and Alvis CV90

If you’re going back that far you could also have Warrior 2000 instead of CV90 and Stormer CVR(T) replacing Scorpion CVR(T) as well.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Warrior 2000

The recce wagon version was a big 'miss' in army prgrms
- 3 of those + a roomier wagon for the commander and his external comms

How many such set ups were needed if we were to match each tank squadron (in the coming plans) and give each AS90 rgmnt one, too, for good measure
... then proceed to: Trials of Truth for the infantry carrier

[mr.fred]

The recce wagon version was a big 'miss' in army prgrms
- 3 of those + a roomier wagon for the commander and his external comms

Not sure what the advantage of the short version really had. A bit lighter, perhaps, but still as tall and wide and you’re also messing with the track geometry. If its not long enough compared to the width it’s not stable and requires constant steering input to keep it on track*. Also marking the commander’s wagon out as different is asking for it to be targeted first, especially at troop/platoon level.

*If you’ll pardon the pun

[ArmChairCivvy]

Good (and valid) detail. But I was trying to refer to the concept: fitted out to do the job, commonality with the rest of the fleet/ family
... and then we went on the track of super-dooper

And when we got dropped in the Sh@t with that one, we went on a twin track (you know the one I am referring to). And somehow it seems that even a twin track can somehow derail us/ the best efforts
- the UK must be the only country with a third 'track' on its railroads. Why don't we try that one next: not just leaves, but also 'wrong kind' of snow can, if not derail us again, but at least stop us... in our tracks (again )

A BIT of harmless fun, sorry!

[Ron5]

Virtually every commentator that's actually seen and heard the Ajax in person, remarks on how noisy it is.

People standing outside are now experts on the crewspace?

So really noisy then.

[Ron5]

This is all pretty damning to be honest. One does begin to wonder if and indeed where a line should be drawn as the current situation is increasingly unacceptable. All stakeholders seem to share at least some of the blame, no one is coming out of this squeaky clean that's for sure.

One wonders if, in the land of miracles, BAE could emerge with a fresh CV90 offer, riding to save the day with a quick to turn around unicorn proposal? One can dream right?

Would be quite a PR coup in the face of their critics - C'mon BAE get cracking!

And the MoD/Treasury admitting to a mistake???

Fat chance.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Which BAE?
Rheinmetall BAE systems land may be delivering CR3, but they have no corporate reach-back to CV90.
So you'd want an overseas business with no UK presence putting in a proposal?

At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to it, providing of course the rumours about Ajax are accurate. I'm sure you could find someway to tempt Hagglunds to build a presence here anyway.

[SW1]

[RunningStrong]

Which BAE?
Rheinmetall BAE systems land may be delivering CR3, but they have no corporate reach-back to CV90.
So you'd want an overseas business with no UK presence putting in a proposal?

At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to it, providing of course the rumours about Ajax are accurate. I'm sure you could find someway to tempt Hagglunds to build a presence here anyway.

How tempting?

Let's consider the precedence you'd be setting. GD spend millions on Methyr Tydfil to bin it. LM spend millions on Ampthill to bin it. FPE spent millions on Foxhound facilities, only for it to be a limited purchase and not considered for later programmes.

Why would anyone have confidence in MOD support to build a UK facility?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Are there actually any sources for binning/ curtailing... or whatever?

[RunningStrong]

Francis is already being pulled up by other people in industry for talking absolute rubbish. And why does he think an ITAR UAS couldn't fly off the carriers? What does he think the F35 is!?

[RunningStrong]

Virtually every commentator that's actually seen and heard the Ajax in person, remarks on how noisy it is.

People standing outside are now experts on the crewspace?

So really noisy then.

Showing you know nothing about AFV acoustics.

[SW1]

Francis is already being pulled up by other people in industry for talking absolute rubbish. And why does he think an ITAR UAS couldn't fly off the carriers? What does he think the F35 is!?

Gd to know I would think it strange to take such a decision now considering we’ve just had a defence review but I don’t know.

On your 2nd point on uav/f35 I agree.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Are there actually any sources for binning/ curtailing... or whatever?

I don't think so. I think he is speaking rhetorically at this point.

I would be staggered if it was binned but perhaps his comments are a hint at just how serious the alleged issues are right now? Could they really be terminal? I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

How tempting?

Let's consider the precedence you'd be setting. GD spend millions on Methyr Tydfil to bin it. LM spend millions on Ampthill to bin it. FPE spent millions on Foxhound facilities, only for it to be a limited purchase and not considered for later programmes.

Why would anyone have confidence in MOD support to build a UK facility?

I'm not saying it's a desirable situation but how much longer can the slow motion car crash that is UK AFV procurement continue?

As I said in my earlier post, none of the stakeholders are covering themselves in glory here. From the Army itself, to the MoD to the Treasury through to the contractors (GDLS). Something has to give at some point but at the end of the day I'd rather make sure that the frontline personnel get adequate kit above all other considerations right now.

But yes, the MoD/Army, regardless of what happens with Ajax, desparately needs to do a lot of work in terms of improving it's reputation as a customer.

[RunningStrong]

How tempting?

Let's consider the precedence you'd be setting. GD spend millions on Methyr Tydfil to bin it. LM spend millions on Ampthill to bin it. FPE spent millions on Foxhound facilities, only for it to be a limited purchase and not considered for later programmes.

Why would anyone have confidence in MOD support to build a UK facility?

I'm not saying it's a desirable situation but how much longer can the slow motion car crash that is UK AFV procurement continue?

As I said in my earlier post, none of the stakeholders are covering themselves in glory here. From the Army itself, to the MoD to the Treasury through to the contractors (GDLS). Something has to give at some point but at the end of the day I'd rather make sure that the frontline personnel get adequate kit above all other considerations right now.

But yes, the MoD/Army, regardless of what happens with Ajax, desparately needs to do a lot of work in terms of improving it's reputation as a customer.

I agree that no one is perfect in this situation, but ultimately, learning and improving has to be the name of the game.

Killing British AFV industry to cover a bad news story is going to put things back 20 years.

[Tempest414]

Which BAE?
Rheinmetall BAE systems land may be delivering CR3, but they have no corporate reach-back to CV90.
So you'd want an overseas business with no UK presence putting in a proposal?

At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to it, providing of course the rumours about Ajax are accurate. I'm sure you could find someway to tempt Hagglunds to build a presence here anyway.

How tempting?

Let's consider the precedence you'd be setting. GD spend millions on Methyr Tydfil to bin it. LM spend millions on Ampthill to bin it. FPE spent millions on Foxhound facilities, only for it to be a limited purchase and not considered for later programmes.

Why would anyone have confidence in MOD support to build a UK facility?

Maybe we should say to FPE we would buy 700 Foxhounds at £700,000 per vehicle if they can do it

On top of this ask to Supacat and LM to come up with a 6x6 CRV something like the French Jaguar cost limit 1.2 million per vehicle

[Defiance]

I agree that no one is perfect in this situation, but ultimately, learning and improving has to be the name of the game.

Problem is how much good money has to be thrown after bad before they learn how to actually do their ****ing job all the while the Army continues to shrink and operate poor equipment?

[RunningStrong]

Which BAE?
Rheinmetall BAE systems land may be delivering CR3, but they have no corporate reach-back to CV90.
So you'd want an overseas business with no UK presence putting in a proposal?

At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to it, providing of course the rumours about Ajax are accurate. I'm sure you could find someway to tempt Hagglunds to build a presence here anyway.

How tempting?

Let's consider the precedence you'd be setting. GD spend millions on Methyr Tydfil to bin it. LM spend millions on Ampthill to bin it. FPE spent millions on Foxhound facilities, only for it to be a limited purchase and not considered for later programmes.

Why would anyone have confidence in MOD support to build a UK facility?

Maybe we should say to FPE we would buy 700 Foxhounds at £700,000 per vehicle if they can do it

On top of this ask to Supacat and LM to come up with a 6x6 CRV something like the French Jaguar cost limit 1.2 million per vehicle

FPE is dead. GDUK bought the business and closed the site. All sustainment work is now done at Merthyr.

Why would LM corporate have any confidence in another UK Land development programme? What do they do with the turret manufacturing facilities?

[RunningStrong]

I agree that no one is perfect in this situation, but ultimately, learning and improving has to be the name of the game.

Problem is how much good money has to be thrown after bad before they learn how to actually do their ****ing job all the while the Army continues to shrink and operate poor equipment?

The other problem is that when it takes 10 years to complete a programme, and then 10 years to start the next, you lose all your experience.