German Armed Forces

[SW1]

Hence why a 2 seat typhoon maybe a very cable bridge right now to integrate a lot of uav/sensor capable

Did we junk them all? Lend one or two as flying test beds to Saab...

No we didn’t, there’s a few still about but you’d have to ŵant to do it and you’d need to fund it. It ultimately depends what you want to do and what route you want to take. I would think there will be big questions of what the uk and Italy will fund going fwd.

[ArmChairCivvy]

questions of what the uk and Italy will fund going fwd.

... and Sweden - if you were thinking of Tempest

[Dahedd]

WTF! Why would they do this over the F35 or further development of the Typhoon?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eport-says

[abc123]

WTF! Why would they do this over the F35 or further development of the Typhoon?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eport-says

Sucking it up to the US, but without being too obvious?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Trump's 'hate' for Germany can be neutralised (by this affair, using his love for Boeing). Even if the man gets re-elected, deliveries will run over the course of the second term... while FCAS, by stealth, gets ramped up
- of course, France could emerge form the Covid crisis so bankrupt that Germany would have to look for a new partner... who better than the country with Saxo-Coburghs

[inch]

Think nobody going to have much money tbh ,a lot of programs are going to be slashed I think across the board

[Jensy]

Think nobody going to have much money tbh ,a lot of programs are going to be slashed I think across the board

Well Germany seems determined to buck that trend. Gareth Jennings at Jane's has put this up:

https://www.janes.com/article/95625/ger ... ia-reports

The 30 Super Hornet multirole and 15 Growler electronic attack (EA) jets would enable the Luftwaffe to fulfil its airborne nuclear strike and EA requirements within the required timeframe, Der Spiegel reported Kramp-Karrenbauer as saying in mid-April. The remaining 40 aircraft would comprise additional Eurofighters to add to the 143 already received (of these, 38 early Tranche 1 aircraft are set to be replaced by the same number of Tranche 3 aircraft under Project Quadriga).

15 Growlers
30 Super Hornets
78 Typhoons + 105 existing Tranche 2/3 aircraft

That is a lot of 4th Gen aircraft for a country hoping to introduce a 6th-Gen fighter in the near future. It will make the Luftwaffe the largest air-force in Europe by quite a margin. Seems quite a jump in capability considering the maintenance and availability issues they've had.

[SW1]

https://www.barrons.com/news/germany-pl ... hyvxYvs2MM

Germany plans to buy 93 Eurofighters and 45 US-made F-18s to replace ageing combat jets, Defence Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer said Tuesday, emphasising that the US planes satisfied NATO requirements.

Amid growing criticism over her decision to include US-made aircraft in the mix, the minister told Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper the F-18s were needed as "bridging technology".

[Jdam]

Does this mean that Germany plans to pay for meteor integration into the F-18?

[ArmChairCivvy]

A bomber-mode F-35 carries ASRAAMs

[Clive F]

The Typhoon order will be reduced after the dust has settled on buying US. I suspect down to T1 replacements.

[Jensy]

The Typhoon order will be reduced after the dust has settled on buying US. I suspect down to T1 replacements.

Germany inflating Typhoon orders for political reasons?.... Now that could never happen

When there was talk of a redesigned wing, for an enhanced ground attack model it made me wonder if it was an attempt to cut Italy and maybe Spain out of their wing production.

Retooling, especially for wings, costs a fortune and getting the other partners to pay for it would be pretty tough.

All speculation of course.

[SW1]

Composite structures have there tooling replaced at pre determined points in the production run as a matter of course. Everyone is aware of this and what would happen is engineering would work to introduce changes at the same time as a major mod production cut in. In the case in point the discussion would probably be, would you wish to uplift a pylon load rating that may require stiffening to structure and the associated knock on effects.

[Jensy]

Composite structures have there tooling replaced at pre determined points in the production run as a matter of course. Everyone is aware of this and what would happen is engineering would work to introduce changes at the same time as a major mod production cut in. In the case in point the discussion would probably be, would you wish to uplift a pylon load rating that may require stiffening to structure and the associated knock on effects.

Poor phrasing on my part. I was thinking more of those fancy jigs they have up at Warton etc. to bring everything together. Understood they cost an absolute fortune and could not be reconfigured, there was some talk of this when the Naval Typhoon was still being considered.

Probably a moot point now as the Growlers will be doing the EW work and (however many) new Luftwaffe Typhoons will be of a similar standard to Tranche 3.

[SW1]

Composite structures have there tooling replaced at pre determined points in the production run as a matter of course. Everyone is aware of this and what would happen is engineering would work to introduce changes at the same time as a major mod production cut in. In the case in point the discussion would probably be, would you wish to uplift a pylon load rating that may require stiffening to structure and the associated knock on effects.

Poor phrasing on my part. I was thinking more of those fancy jigs they have up at Warton etc. to bring everything together. Understood they cost an absolute fortune and could not be reconfigured, there was some talk of this when the Naval Typhoon was still being considered.

Probably a moot point now as the Growlers will be doing the EW work and (however many) new Luftwaffe Typhoons will be of a similar standard to Tranche 3.

You wouldn’t be changing the major assembly structural interface around the root joint, nor would you change the wing OML. It’s generally less seen in military aircraft because production runs are usually reasonably small. But you can from the commercial world see were much larger and heavier engines are added under aircraft wings or outer parts of wings changed like 777x or max zero fuel weights increased there is options available if your prepared to pay the non recurring cost of engineering and test time.

Manufacturing always cry there eyes out about tooling

[Lord Jim]

Quite a good explanation of how the F?A-18 purchase may or may not happen.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Excellent find, thank you for that. All the key aspects touched on:

1. where can you buy ECRs (as without one the 'Strike Force' is not credible)
- only in one place

2. when can you buy them (Part A)
- in the convoluted and finely balanced German politics only the Chancellor's support will navigate the deal through... who knows, who will be the next Chancellor?

... and Part B to "when"
- the political process taking this year is covered on the production line by USN & Kuwaiti orders (not huge)
- after that only the combined German & Finnish order (taken together c. 100) will be big enough to keep the line open at all
So, hesitate, and it will all be lost (not just more expensive as put in the video, due to the stops and starts) and waiting past 2035 for the next possible replacement might make even the mighty Tornados crumble on the way to there

[SW1]

https://www.janes.com/article/95741/hen ... -programme

Hensoldt has revealed a new airborne jammer that forms part of a wider family of electronic warfare (EW) systems it is developing for the NATO electronic attack (EA) requirement that the Luftwaffe has committed itself to deliver.

The Kalaetron Attack jammer, revealed on 23 April, is billed as a modular system that Hensoldt hopes will be adopted by the Luftwaffe to deliver its wider Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum (luWES) capability to NATO from 2025.

Kalaetron Attack now adds an active electronic jamming component, which either dazzles or deceives threatening systems using accurately replicated jamming signals. In this way, Kalaetron Attack expands the operational options of fighter aircraft, which can now also operate in anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) zones,” Celia Pelaz, Head of Hensoldt’s Spectrum Dominance & Airborne Solutions Division, was quoted as saying.

[Qwerty]

The Weasel lives on!

https://defence-blog.com/army/german-ar ... ction.html

[Lord Jim]

Not new, but a good explanation of the capabilities of the latest Lynx AFV, and how it can be easily reconfigures.

[Lord Jim]

A video showing a novel approach being tried in Germany to attract young people to the Military. I wonder if we should try something similar?

[walter]

Damen and German Defense Organisation sign contract for the MKS180

This afternoon, Damen Shipyards and the purchasing organization of the German Ministry of Defense signed the contract for four MKS 180 frigates. The contract was able to be signed so soon after the budgets were allocated, because the contract negotiations had already started earlier. Marineschepen.nl spoke in anticipation of the contract with director naval sales support Richard Keulen.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Is there a precedent for German warships ordered from a foreign company?

NL is not that unexpected/ radical, as Fokker (and Krupps, for their naval guns) packed up after WW1 and moved across the border.

[walter]

Well,to my understanding it's quite unique,

Normally Germany(as in shipbuilders)builds her own ships and boats.

This was the 1st open tender ever,but Damen is designer and lead builder,but ships will be build in Germany.

Also after a foreign company won,Germany decided that shipbuilding was a key technology,so will be the last time this happens.

[Gtal]

Could also be playing the long game. If Germany wants other eu countries to buy fcas and leo 3 etc they've got to show it goes both ways.