F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

sunstersun wrote:The EW on the F-35 is better than the Growler.
It really isn't...when it comes to EW power and size mean a hell of a lot. The different varieties of NHJ will be far more powerful than anything the F-35 can mount internally.

Defiance
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Defiance »

Timmymagic wrote: It really isn't...when it comes to EW power and size mean a hell of a lot. The different varieties of NHJ will be far more powerful than anything the F-35 can mount internally.
But then don't you start to get into the discussion around biggest isn't always neccesary? A Growler might be neccesary to protect a Super Hornet-derived strike package in a high threat environment but something a bit sneakier might not need quite as much power to provide the same effect.

Not denying EA-18G is a very capable platform, NGJ-family is going to be interesting to watch join the fleet, but IMO required EW power is relative to the thing(s) it's attempting to protect rather than the absolute figure. At least to a certain degree.

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Timmymagic wrote:Seen elsewhere...hopefully the MoD can shake the piggy bank and find some small change for a number of these..at 7.5 ft it will fit in F-35B (PWIV is 8.5 ft.)

http://www.kihomac.virtualtsb.com/atp/# ... 3-39a2d428
Now with video...hopefully the price isn't that outrageous for a carbon fibre tube with some fittings..




jonas
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by jonas »

commons written answers 26th July :-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 7-20/36555

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Good news but why wait for another five years, the Fleet needs it now for the F-35B to be a credible defensive platform and provide the outer layer of the Carrier Groups air defences.

Tinman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Tinman »

Lord Jim wrote:Good news but why wait for another five years, the Fleet needs it now for the F-35B to be a credible defensive platform and provide the outer layer of the Carrier Groups air defences.
Five years, in reality earlier if needed, not a bad deal considering f how long it took it to enter service on Typhoon. Money is needed elsewhere it's a none issue.

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Good news but why wait for another five years, the Fleet needs it now for the F-35B to be a credible defensive platform and provide the outer layer of the Carrier Groups air defences.
Isn't it tied to the delivery of Blk IV software? I doubt if anyone has the enthusiasm to integrate with older levels.

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Jdam
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jdam »

Isn't the block 4 software split into 4 sections? From memory the Meteor was in section 4.

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote:Isn't the block 4 software split into 4 sections? From memory the Meteor was in section 4.
Yes its delivered incrementally, it doesn't drop all in 1 go. What everyone also needs to be aware of is that even when Meteor is integrated to F-35 in general, there may be a significant part of the UK's F-35B fleet that won't be able to carry it until they receive the full hardware upgrades to enable them to be 'Block IV'd'. Hopefully these upgrades will run in parallel with the software effort so we reach a position in c2027 where all of the UK's fleet, with the exception of the 3 Test aircraft, are of the same standard and avoid the 'Fleet within Fleets' issue that other UK and US platforms have suffered from.
Lord Jim wrote:Good news but why wait for another five years, the Fleet needs it now for the F-35B to be a credible defensive platform and provide the outer layer of the Carrier Groups air defences.
Amraam C-5 is credible already. But the arrival of Amraam D next year means we're pretty well covered for the interim period. There aren't many platforms out there that stand a chance against an F-35 with Amraam D and legacy Asraam. Meteor (or even better JNAAM) and Asraam CSP are the icing on a very capable cake.

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

And some treasury dimwit out in left field is yelling but we don't want no stinking British missiles on Apache, cheaper to buy American :roll:

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Part of me hopes that Brimstone will be integrated onto the Apache Guardian at a later date to give the platform more options. I believe Brimstone 3 has a more capable seeker combo that the US Missile, and someone somewhere has got to realise that we already have Brimstone in service with the RAF and it may also be adopted in a ground launched version by the Army as a long range over watch system. A "Shoot off" between the two missile by teh AAC would be interesting.

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Part of me hopes that Brimstone will be integrated onto the Apache Guardian at a later date to give the platform more options. I believe Brimstone 3 has a more capable seeker combo that the US Missile, and someone somewhere has got to realise that we already have Brimstone in service with the RAF and it may also be adopted in a ground launched version by the Army as a long range over watch system. A "Shoot off" between the two missile by teh AAC would be interesting.
Ellwood keeps asking why are they being so effing stupid on this issue but it's not clear if that (he) has much weight. He also thinks the army should be using Brimstone on Ajax and Boxer too. Like what's the point of the UK having a world leading weapon if it's own forces are not using it?

Would work pretty well on ships too ..

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:Part of me hopes that Brimstone will be integrated onto the Apache Guardian at a later date to give the platform more options. I believe Brimstone 3 has a more capable seeker combo that the US Missile, and someone somewhere has got to realise that we already have Brimstone in service with the RAF and it may also be adopted in a ground launched version by the Army as a long range over watch system. A "Shoot off" between the two missile by teh AAC would be interesting.
Ellwood keeps asking why are they being so effing stupid on this issue but it's not clear if that (he) has much weight. He also thinks the army should be using Brimstone on Ajax and Boxer too. Like what's the point of the UK having a world leading weapon if it's own forces are not using it?

Would work pretty well on ships too ..
The most annoying thing is that "Sea Spear" is Single Mode Brimstone. RAF still has large stocks of these, however all new buys are Dual Mode Brimstone. The need for large quantities of MMW only Brimstone today is actually pretty limited. There are plenty that could be used on RN vessels...RAF would be happy with Dual Mode only stockpiles. Same with Hellfire L in the AAC...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Put them on the carriers.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by J. Tattersall »

Timmymagic wrote:The need for large quantities of MMW only Brimstone today is actually pretty limited.
Don't disagree it's limited but might become less limited with more emphasis on anti-armour. But let's be clear Brimstone 1 (MMW only) stocks will progressively LIFEX as their constituent EMs age. I'd be surprised if there are many MMW only Brimstones going forward, with their recoverable components recycled into Brimstones 2 & 3.

J. Tattersall

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by J. Tattersall »

Ron5 wrote:Like what's the point of the UK having a world leading weapon if it's own forces are not using it?
err, they are. It's on Typhoon and being integrated onto Protector. As for land let's see where BGOAA leads.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

BGOAA is either a case of reinventing the wheel yet again or aiming for a capability that is based on technology far from being mature. Brimstone is a world class weapon system available now to fill holes in the UKs military capabilities. Yes look ten twenty years into the future for the nest generation weapons or those in the following generation but at least get something to the troops on the ground or even at sea, in a more timely manner, i.e. Brimstone.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by J. Tattersall »

Lord Jim wrote:BGOAA is either a case of reinventing the wheel yet again or aiming for a capability that is based on technology far from being mature. Brimstone is a world class weapon system available now to fill holes in the UKs military capabilities. Yes look ten twenty years into the future for the nest generation weapons or those in the following generation but at least get something to the troops on the ground or even at sea, in a more timely manner, i.e. Brimstone.
Why do you think BGOAA is twenty years in the future? I'm also not sure what relevance Brimstone has to F-35?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Brimstone 3 is an effective and proven weapon system capable of engaging single or multiple targets, autonomously or semi-autonomously. It has a smaller warhead than SPEAR 3 but still effective and is probably cheaper. With the F-35 it would probably carried on external pylons, but the F-35 will not always operate in full stealth mode. The RAF cannot afford to do so and the FAA even more so. We simply do not, nor will not have sufficient manned aircraft to operate it as such and even when TEMPEST enters service, its prime mission is going to be A2A.

As for BGOAA being twenty years in the future, maybe that is a bit far but some of the capabilities listed are still in the research phase. If a solution with less capability is then there are already families of ATGWs available off the shelf that are still evolving and adding new capabilities, Spike being the obvious one. To develop a new weapon system that does not greatly exceed these is simple reinventing the wheel, and that is something we cannot afford to do. For the ground launched long range role though guess what we already have Brimstone 3, which would be a pretty good choice to fill the Army's existing capability gap, and it should have been a logical choice for Apache, having already proven it would work with the platform. But someone somewhere decided that we would introduce a totally new, stand alone system within the MoD for the Apache on cost grounds, ignoring saving the MoD would have made form having a common missile operated across multiple domains that was already in service one.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Great thread from Gabi. Looks like the road-map for upgrading the UK's F-35 fleet to Block IV capability will be proved by the USMC.

The reason why this is great news is that if the USMC price it and prove it then it is likely the UK will move to the same standard. Not only for reasons of commonality, but also because going our own route could add cost and significant risk. Essentially this means that the likelihood of the UK's fleet receiving the full Block IV enhancements to the highest level (most capable EW, processing, wide screen display, weapons bay changes and the previously confirmed EOTS/DAS upgrade) just increased massively...

However...the flipside of this is that it is now increasingly likely that the first UK Combat Capable jet, BK-03, will not now get upgraded to Block IV. The risk, and cost, to upgrade an aircraft from one of the earliest production a/c to Block IV (which the US isn't doing), all on our own could potentially be too great. And an individual upgrade cost of well north of $25m is probably not worth it on an airframe with some hours on it already. Personally, if given the choice, I'd upgrade the F-35B fleet to the Block IV Lot 17 standard, with the exception of the 2 x initial ITF 'Orange Wired' test aircraft and BK-03 as Block 2/3F (not sure if the 3rd, later production, ITF aircraft would need an upgrade or not for the work that it does). I'd try and use BK-03 as an airshow aircraft, training, trials and stealthy aggressor....however balanced against this the fear of up to 4/5 Combat Capable aircraft from earlier batches not being Block IV'd seem to have receded somewhat. At the moment its looking good for 44 x Block IV, Lot 17 standard F-35B. If we can add some more to that to get to 60+ all will be well.


Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Hat tip to Navy Lookout for tweeting about this..



https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-featur ... r-csg.html

Also confirms that 6 x F-35 will be going to sea later this year on HMS Prince of Wales.

SDL
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SDL »

Not been able to keep up with a lot of news lately... what's the UK F-35 numbers currently?

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

SDL wrote:Not been able to keep up with a lot of news lately... what's the UK F-35 numbers currently?
At present its still 21 total.

3 x ITF aircraft at Edwards (all non-combat capable), 8 x a/c on Queen Elizabeth, 4 x a/c on Prince of Wales. With 6 remaining at Marham.

There should be another 6 delivered in the next 3 months and 8 more next year, that is unless COVID has delayed them by a small amount.

The 6 delivered this year and 8 delivered next will increase our 'combat capable' fleet by 33% in each year. So a massive increase in real capability.

dmereifield
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by dmereifield »

Timmymagic wrote:
SDL wrote:Not been able to keep up with a lot of news lately... what's the UK F-35 numbers currently?
At present its still 21 total.

3 x ITF aircraft at Edwards (all non-combat capable), 8 x a/c on Queen Elizabeth, 4 x a/c on Prince of Wales. With 6 remaining at Marham.

There should be another 6 delivered in the next 3 months and 8 more next year, that is unless COVID has delayed them by a small amount.

The 6 delivered this year and 8 delivered next will increase our 'combat capable' fleet by 33% in each year. So a massive increase in real capability.
Thats more than I had though. I hope they keep the pace up beyond that(?). When are we expecting to see the 3rd and 4th frontline squadrons to stand up?

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

The Second (Operational) Squadron; 809NAS scheduled to stand up during 2023. Beyond that, it seems rather speculative. :mrgreen:

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