F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote:Negotiating tactics most likely for the jets after our initial 48.

Integration of Meteor statement was also interesting I wonder if things are not going to plan, we haven't heard about it since the test examples were delivered over a year ago (not that I expected every detail to be listed).
Absolutely, he has leverage right now, that might not be there in a while, so why not apply it.

But the Meteor (and I guess Spear) question is the most interesting. My suspicion is the US is looking to push AIM-260 to the top of the queue...despite the fact it barely exists and has only arrived recently.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

topman wrote:Not surprising on the costs front or the impact from having a high maintenance cost a/c.

Surprised he has spoke out on this so publicly, I wonder why on this and why now.?
After all the Ajax press and today the bad NAO report which he would have seen ahead of time, not hard to figure out.

I'm sure he doesn't need telling that he needs to get his department's procurement sorted or else. Mind you, I expect every SoS for Defence since the job title was created, was told exactly the same thing. I can only think of one predecessor who managed to get promoted out of that job, Hammond, and he was a greasy weasel who was pals with the worst UK PM ever.

Looking at the list, not very impressive. Healey & Hoon were in the job the longest.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:
Jdam wrote:Negotiating tactics most likely for the jets after our initial 48.

Integration of Meteor statement was also interesting I wonder if things are not going to plan, we haven't heard about it since the test examples were delivered over a year ago (not that I expected every detail to be listed).
Absolutely, he has leverage right now, that might not be there in a while, so why not apply it.

But the Meteor (and I guess Spear) question is the most interesting. My suspicion is the US is looking to push AIM-260 to the top of the queue...despite the fact it barely exists and has only arrived recently.
I doubt it. He's a politician so he's talking to the peanut gallery not Lockheed: "Look at me talking all tough about spending tax payer money". The US is an easy target, no voters there.

topman
Member
Posts: 771
Joined: 07 May 2015, 20:56
Tokelau

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by topman »

Ron5 wrote:
topman wrote:Not surprising on the costs front or the impact from having a high maintenance cost a/c.

Surprised he has spoke out on this so publicly, I wonder why on this and why now.?
After all the Ajax press and today the bad NAO report which he would have seen ahead of time, not hard to figure out.

I'm sure he doesn't need telling that he needs to get his department's procurement sorted or else. Mind you, I expect every SoS for Defence since the job title was created, was told exactly the same thing. I can only think of one predecessor who managed to get promoted out of that job, Hammond, and he was a greasy weasel who was pals with the worst UK PM ever.

Looking at the list, not very impressive. Healey & Hoon were in the job the longest.

Maybe but NAO reports slating the MoD are as regular as clockwork as are projects overrunning on costs.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

I liked what the SoS stated in front of the Defence Committee, that he would like to see Principal Programme Managers see a project from start to finish regardless of them being Military or Civilian.

topman
Member
Posts: 771
Joined: 07 May 2015, 20:56
Tokelau

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by topman »

Well he's the SoS, so if he wants it to happen then it's within his power, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Do we really want “an individual” to be in charge of a programme for its entire duration? It is possible for “that programme” to last for a decade or two! Think of the Astute, QEC and Dreadnought classes for example. To make it relevant to this thread, If the F35B were a UK programme how long do we think that it will last? Would it even reach it’s end when the last F35B is acquired for use on the QEC (say 40 years from inception)? Not thought through! :mrgreen:

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2784
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Caribbean »

The normal thing for a long running project like that would be to engage in "succession planning", so that potential future managers are brought into the organisation at lower levels and then promoted into positions of greater responsibility as time goes on, bringing their accumulated "project wisdom" with them to the top job, rather than parachuting someone in at the top every few years, with their own ideas and agendas (and lack of detailed project knowledge).

Parachuting someone in at the top should only be done when it is clear that a project is in need of a fresh approach and the incumbents are not capable of making the mental adjustment.

Hmmmmmm........
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
Jensy
Senior Member
Posts: 1061
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jensy »

From Navy Lookout:



809 Squadron might not stand up before 2026.

Hardly squares well with previous MoD claims that the order had been accelerated... :thumbdown:

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote:From Navy Lookout:



809 Squadron might not stand up before 2026.

Hardly squares well with previous MoD claims that the order had been accelerated... :thumbdown:
I'm not sure they have said that. What they have said and done some time ago (well before the review), is delay the last F-35 batch by 12 months because of financial issues.

User avatar
Jensy
Senior Member
Posts: 1061
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote: I'm not sure they have said that. What they have said and done some time ago (well before the review), is delay the last F-35 batch by 12 months because of financial issues.
Unless I'm imagining it, there were statements between 2015 and 2019 (the summer of three DefSecs) about how F-35 procurement was being brought forward to deliver 48 by 2025 theoretically permitting up to 24 UK aircraft at sea.

A cursory look at Hansard hasn't given much of a clue (though the keywords are tricky) so it might have been something brefied to the media rather than in Parliament.

Personally I've been more concerned about ensuring we buy the latest batch for the best price, with less focus on speed, but that was before the Typhoon force was further trimmed with the withdrawal of the (remaining) Tranche 1s.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Is the target still five frontline Typhoon and two or three frontline F-35B squadrons for the RAF's Fast Jet fleet, plus and UCAVs that appear?

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

How easily some people choose to forget that we have been in the midst of a Pandemic for almost 18 months. Some delays in deliveries arising from this are only to be expected. There is a possible short term solution to the problem however; The solution is for 617 Sqdn. and 207 Sqdn. (OCU) along with 809 NAS to operate with 8 or 9 aircraft each, until the additional 9-12 aircraft required to bring them up to full strength, become available. :idea:

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote:
Ron5 wrote: I'm not sure they have said that. What they have said and done some time ago (well before the review), is delay the last F-35 batch by 12 months because of financial issues.
Unless I'm imagining it, there were statements between 2015 and 2019 (the summer of three DefSecs) about how F-35 procurement was being brought forward to deliver 48 by 2025 theoretically permitting up to 24 UK aircraft at sea.

A cursory look at Hansard hasn't given much of a clue (though the keywords are tricky) so it might have been something brefied to the media rather than in Parliament.

Personally I've been more concerned about ensuring we buy the latest batch for the best price, with less focus on speed, but that was before the Typhoon force was further trimmed with the withdrawal of the (remaining) Tranche 1s.
Politicians sending conflicting messages and changing stories over time to suit the prevailing climate. I'm shocked I tell you, shocked. What a world we live in :o

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Is the target still five frontline Typhoon and two or three frontline F-35B squadrons for the RAF's Fast Jet fleet, plus and UCAVs that appear?
How can you be in any doubt?? Surely a comprehensive integrated defense review was only just published :lol: :lol: :lol:

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jensy wrote:Unless I'm imagining it, there were statements between 2015 and 2019 (the summer of three DefSecs) about how F-35 procurement was being brought forward to deliver 48 by 2025 theoretically permitting up to 24 UK aircraft at sea
Actually the intention was to deliver all 48 by 2024. The final 'block' of 13 was to be delivered in 2023-24. Now that has been stretched over 2023-25. To be honest even if we hadn't made that decision in 2019 I suspect the delays brought on by COVID would have made it an inevitability.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Here's the delivery timeline again...any changes since last time in Red

So of the UK's '48' here's the status:
Note - Delivery is 'usually' a minimum of 2 years after order.

Delivered to date

LRIP 1 - April 2007 - No UK Orders, (US F-35A only)
LRIP 2 - July 2007 - No UK Orders (6 F-35B for USMC, first F-35B order)
LRIP 3 - May 2008 - 2 x UK F-35B order - Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 4 - Nov 2009 - 1 x UK F-35B order - First 'Combat Capable' aircraft - BK-03
LRIP 5 - Dec 2011 - No UK Orders
LRIP 6 - Sept 2013 - No UK Orders
LRIP 7 - Sept 2013 - 1 x UK F-35B Order - Additional Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 8 - Nov 2014 - 4 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 9 - Nov 2015 - 6 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 10 - 2016 - 3 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 11 - 2017 - 1 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 12 - Nov 2018 - 3 x UK F-35B Order, delivered in late 2020

Total - 21 Delivered

On Order, Not delivered - Note LRIP's 12 (above), 13 and 14 were done together as a 'Bulk Buy'

LRIP 13 - Nov 2018 - 6 x UK F-35B Order - Likely to be delivered in late 2021
LRIP 14 - Nov 2018 - 8 x UK F-35B Order - Likely to be delivered in 2022 (suspect late in the year as per previous deliveries)

N.B. - LRIP 13 (and perhaps 14) could be affected by COVID delays.

Total - 14 contracted, being manufactured

Next Steps
Full Rate Production Orders (FRP) - Will be placed once pricing agreed

FRP Delivery 1 - 2023 - 2 x UK F-35B
FRP Delivery 2 - 2024 - 4 x UK F-35B
FRP Delivery 3 - 2025 - 7 x UK F-35B - These were all previously expected by 2024 at latest

N.B. - Worth noting that the production timeline appears to be 2 years from order to delivery. For FRP Delivery 1 to take place in 2023 the order looks likely to need to be placed by the end of 2021. However, this is dependent on Full Rate Pricing being agreed....which has been a long running, dismal saga to date....it may be that the 2023 deliveries are at risk in terms of time...

Total - 13 Promised/Confirmed will be ordered by MoD

Since last time the only change has been the confirmation from MoD that they do intend to procure more than 48 F-35B, with additional buys being explored. A total in service of 60 has been mentioned. The 138 figure now appears to have been abandoned even in MoD comms. For my money if they want to get to 60 (although even then thats not perfect, a fleet of mid 70's would be good, with mid 90's ideal, though spectacularly unlikely...) they need to order them in 2026-2029. After that Tempest will start to suck the Combat Air budget dry.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Outstanding post :thumbup:

One comment: higher numbers than 60 have been mentioned by significant folks.

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:One comment: higher numbers than 60 have been mentioned by significant folks.
Absolutely. Decided to play it a little conservative until the smoke clears...if it ever does.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

Did the First Sea Lord say 80 earlier this year

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SW1 »

The question as to why the defence secretary outspoken public view on f35 maybe becoming apparent


Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:The question as to why the defence secretary outspoken public view on f35 maybe becoming apparent

Hardly a credible source.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Don't suppose that's a "B" ....

Image

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:Hardly a credible source.
Seems to be a massive extrapolation from the Defence Secretary sending LM a warning shot across the bows around Meteor integration.

I'd speculate that this is due to LM having a stake in AIM-260 integration...getting our view across if there is any re-jigging going on at the moment (and in that I think we're completely justified, Meteor has been on the roadmap for over a decade..).

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Seen elsewhere...hopefully the MoD can shake the piggy bank and find some small change for a number of these..at 7.5 ft it will fit in F-35B (PWIV is 8.5 ft.)

http://www.kihomac.virtualtsb.com/atp/# ... 3-39a2d428

KIHOMAC ANNOUNCES AVAILABILITY OF NEW
ADVANCED TRAVEL POD FOR THE WORLDWIDE F-35 FLEET
LAYTON, Utah, 23 Feb 2021 -- KIHOMAC announced today the rollout of their new F-35 Advanced Travel Pod (ATP)
(patent pending), with increased functionality, more capacity and improved operability as compared to legacy cargo
pods. The KIHOMAC ATP delivers a responsive solution to F-35 world-wide mobility, adaptive basing and agile
combat employment requirements for both the U.S. and International military services.
The new ATP is a 5th Generation solution for 5th Generation fighters, supporting the diverse operational needs of
the modern warfighter and the F-35. The ATP is designed and manufactured at KIHOMAC’s Center for Advanced
Manufacturing in Layton, Utah, and boasts state-of-the-art materials and enhanced functionality integrated into the
design. The ATP will give warfighters increased versatility in both austere locations and training exercise
environments alike.
The Advanced Travel Pod’s carbon fiber construction matches that of the F-35 weapon system itself and offers a
streamlined sustainment system. “It is specifically designed for internal use on the F-35 and brings many design
features which are not currently available to maintainers and aircrews,” said Ki Ho Kang, Founder and CEO of
KIHOMAC. “We’re proud of our employees, some of whom are former F-35 crew members, who uncovered the need
for a new pod and followed-through with development and production of a great new addition to the F-35
enterprise.”
The new ATP features include:
(1) Larger access doors for improved access and versatility for outsized equipment.
(2) KIHOMAC’s Integrated Tie-down System with more flexibility for storage of odd-sized items and proper
security of all items for flight.
(3) Lighter weight design, at over 40 pounds less than the legacy pod it is easily manageable by two crew
members.
(4) Larger storage space with nearly 3 times more internal storage than the legacy pod (12 cubic-feet).
(5) Standard NATO Lug spacing to ensure compatibility with U.S. military services and international partners
(6) Removable end caps for easy loading and unloading of long items.
KIHOMAC is in the process of receiving U.S. Air Force final approval of this ATP for full F-35 operational use, and
the ATP is now available for pre-order

Image
Image
Image
Image

Post Reply