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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
134
44%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
13
4%
Uncertain (RN)
15
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
59
19%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
41
13%
Uncertain (RAF)
44
14%
 
Total votes: 306

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 07 Jul 2021, 15:23

Don't suppose that's a "B" ....

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Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Jul 2021, 12:22

Ron5 wrote:Hardly a credible source.


Seems to be a massive extrapolation from the Defence Secretary sending LM a warning shot across the bows around Meteor integration.

I'd speculate that this is due to LM having a stake in AIM-260 integration...getting our view across if there is any re-jigging going on at the moment (and in that I think we're completely justified, Meteor has been on the roadmap for over a decade..).

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Jul 2021, 13:15

Seen elsewhere...hopefully the MoD can shake the piggy bank and find some small change for a number of these..at 7.5 ft it will fit in F-35B (PWIV is 8.5 ft.)

http://www.kihomac.virtualtsb.com/atp/# ... 3-39a2d428

KIHOMAC ANNOUNCES AVAILABILITY OF NEW
ADVANCED TRAVEL POD FOR THE WORLDWIDE F-35 FLEET
LAYTON, Utah, 23 Feb 2021 -- KIHOMAC announced today the rollout of their new F-35 Advanced Travel Pod (ATP)
(patent pending), with increased functionality, more capacity and improved operability as compared to legacy cargo
pods. The KIHOMAC ATP delivers a responsive solution to F-35 world-wide mobility, adaptive basing and agile
combat employment requirements for both the U.S. and International military services.
The new ATP is a 5th Generation solution for 5th Generation fighters, supporting the diverse operational needs of
the modern warfighter and the F-35. The ATP is designed and manufactured at KIHOMAC’s Center for Advanced
Manufacturing in Layton, Utah, and boasts state-of-the-art materials and enhanced functionality integrated into the
design. The ATP will give warfighters increased versatility in both austere locations and training exercise
environments alike.
The Advanced Travel Pod’s carbon fiber construction matches that of the F-35 weapon system itself and offers a
streamlined sustainment system. “It is specifically designed for internal use on the F-35 and brings many design
features which are not currently available to maintainers and aircrews,” said Ki Ho Kang, Founder and CEO of
KIHOMAC. “We’re proud of our employees, some of whom are former F-35 crew members, who uncovered the need
for a new pod and followed-through with development and production of a great new addition to the F-35
enterprise.”
The new ATP features include:
(1) Larger access doors for improved access and versatility for outsized equipment.
(2) KIHOMAC’s Integrated Tie-down System with more flexibility for storage of odd-sized items and proper
security of all items for flight.
(3) Lighter weight design, at over 40 pounds less than the legacy pod it is easily manageable by two crew
members.
(4) Larger storage space with nearly 3 times more internal storage than the legacy pod (12 cubic-feet).
(5) Standard NATO Lug spacing to ensure compatibility with U.S. military services and international partners
(6) Removable end caps for easy loading and unloading of long items.
KIHOMAC is in the process of receiving U.S. Air Force final approval of this ATP for full F-35 operational use, and
the ATP is now available for pre-order

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Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 08 Jul 2021, 15:24

Only is it's made by Samsonite and comes with wheels :D

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 09 Jul 2021, 08:41

Timmymagic wrote:Seen elsewhere...hopefully the MoD can shake the piggy bank and find some small change for a number of these..at 7.5 ft it will fit in F-35B (PWIV is 8.5 ft.)


Should have added...realistically if you need to fly with one of these you will be flying with 2, one in each bay. So a decent 'luggage' capacity.

This is also the first 'aftermarket' piece of kit for F-35 we've seen arrive. Hopefully this will spur on others to deliver other capabilities (external tanks, Terma's multi mission pod etc.). I don't think conformal's will be a thing....no attachment points for them on aircraft to date and its been very quiet for a long time..

topman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby topman » 09 Jul 2021, 12:06

Baggage pods are pretty handy, I wonder if they'll ever be bought and cleared for use.

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 09 Jul 2021, 15:26

topman wrote:Baggage pods are pretty handy, I wonder if they'll ever be bought and cleared for use.


You'd hope so, they can't be too expensive (although I'm sure that to the layman one of these carbon fibre tubes will be ridiculously priced). Looks like the US are doing the initial clearance work, but I have to say it doesn't mention F-35B anywhere, I've guessed that it will fit based on its length (its about a foot shorter than PWIV) only. It may well be that some other dimension/feature makes it unsuitable for F-35B internal carriage.

Tinman
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Tinman » 14 Jul 2021, 10:22

Timmymagic wrote:
topman wrote:Baggage pods are pretty handy, I wonder if they'll ever be bought and cleared for use.


You'd hope so, they can't be too expensive (although I'm sure that to the layman one of these carbon fibre tubes will be ridiculously priced). Looks like the US are doing the initial clearance work, but I have to say it doesn't mention F-35B anywhere, I've guessed that it will fit based on its length (its about a foot shorter than PWIV) only. It may well be that some other dimension/feature makes it unsuitable for F-35B internal carriage.
There are a lot more pressing integrations required before baggage pods.

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 14 Jul 2021, 11:07

Tinman wrote:There are a lot more pressing integrations required before baggage pods.


Sure there are, but it looks like the US is taking it upon themselves to get it underway. But...Seek Eagle is a USAF initiative so will probably only cover the F-35A. Would imagine that the USN's testing for F-35C would have to build on top of that, particularly for arrested landings.

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 15 Jul 2021, 14:41

We want Meteor to be integrated

That will be 6 trillion dollars and 10 years

We want suitcases to be integrated

Free, next week OK? Samsonite & Holiday Inn have agreed to sponsor.

jonas
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby jonas » 20 Jul 2021, 13:55

Commons written answers 19th july 2021 :-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 7-14/33136

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 20 Jul 2021, 14:11

Cost of F-35 integration: ASRAAM: £47 million, Paveway IV: £103 million, SPEAR Cap 3: £170 million.

That's all? We were told those nasty yanks charged the UK hundred of millions for this.

I wonder how much integrating Brimstone on Apache would cost. If of a similar order, shows once again what a stupid decision not to.

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 20 Jul 2021, 14:34

Financially induced short sightedness strikes once again.

SW1
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 20 Jul 2021, 14:47

Def Sec suggested brimstone integration on Apache was £70m and decision taken to close black hole at his last committee appearance.

Ron5
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 20 Jul 2021, 16:03

SW1 wrote:Def Sec suggested brimstone integration on Apache was £70m and decision taken to close black hole at his last committee appearance.


Peanuts. Would be paid back with first export order.

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 21 Jul 2021, 07:12

I thought the new money was only meant to be spent on new capabilities and equipment, and definitely not to shore up existing ones and their programmes and more importantly not to be used to fill in any holes!

jonas
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby jonas » 22 Jul 2021, 09:33


Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 22 Jul 2021, 14:10

Ron5 wrote:Cost of F-35 integration: ASRAAM: £47 million, Paveway IV: £103 million, SPEAR Cap 3: £170 million.


The devil is in the detail....i.e. is that the full cost for Asraam and will it include integration of Asraam Blk. 6 (CSP). Because if its just legacy Asraam only we've paid an awful lot for 3-4 years of operational use on a very small number of airframes. Same with Paveway IV...does it include Paveway IV Penetrator?

Presumably the integration costs were higher for Paveway IV than Asraam, despite it being a simpler weapon and released in a more restricted envelope, because trials included internal and external carriage...

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 22 Jul 2021, 14:13

jonas wrote:written answers 21st July 2021 :-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 7-16/34463


Kevan Jones is asking some decent questions at the moment...

So, given that answer, unless an F-35 is sat at Marham sans engine...there are no spare engines on HMS Queen Elizabeth....

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Jul 2021, 21:19

The ability of the QE to repair and test engines is very limited. This makes the lack of spares worrying, unless the USN is going to fly a replacement out in an Osprey every time one of our engines goes U/S. The current system may just about work for land based operations but for naval ones it is going to be an issue if the Carrier mover to a warfighting stance. Would additional engines be made available to the UK if that happened?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 23 Jul 2021, 20:10

Air International reporting contract with LM for integration of 3 munitions. Interesting bit in red...

LOCKHEED MARTIN has been awarded a US$472m contract modification to a previously awarded cost-plus-incentive-fee agreement
to further develop and integrate three new weapons capabilities on the F-35A and F-35B aircraft, operated by Italy and the United
Kingdom respectively
. In a June 21 announcement by the US Department of Defense (DoD), work will be split evenly between the US (50%) and at sites in Stevenage (36%), Samlesbury (12%) and Harlow (2%) in the UK. The US Naval
Air Systems Command was named as the contracting authority. European missile manufacturer MBDA has a facility in Stevenage, while BAE Systems’ Samlesbury facility is central to the UK’s contribution to the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter. It is not known whether either of these companies will be involved with the new weapons integration. Although the weapon types were not disclosed by the DoD, in January this year the UK signed a £550m contract with MBDA to equip its F-35B Lightning II fighters with the Select Precision Effects At Range missile No.3 (SPEAR3) capability. A January 21 release from the Royal Navy, which operates the F-35B aircraft alongside the RAF as a joint force, stated that the SPEAR3 missile would be integrated into frontline units over the next seven years. With a range of more than 140km, SPEAR3 is powered at high subsonic speeds by a turbojet engine and can operate across land and sea, day or night, for strikes on moving and stationary targets. Testing, simulation and trials will include controlled firings from an aircraft before the missile is delivered to
Marham and the Portsmouth-based carriers for frontline operations. An MBDA release at the time said that guided firings of SPEAR3 will start within 18 months from a Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft, with missile and launcher production beginning in 2023.

The 3 weapons are presumably Meteor, Spear and Asraam Blk.6 (previously called Asraam CSP).

The interesting bit is the Italy part....it could be Meteor for F-35A or Spear (which to my knowledge the Italian's have yet to order)....but the Italian's also have not selected a WVR missile for their F-35 (their Typhoon use IRIS-T). They're deeply involved in the CAMM-ER programme so may also decide to go with Asraam CSP on their F-35A and B. The situation is complicated by the Italian's actually making some small parts of AIM-9X despite not being a user. I suspect their industrial involvement with Asraam is actually greater now.

Jdam
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Jdam » 23 Jul 2021, 20:44

Interesting theory what missiles do Italy use on their harriers? If they use Sidewinder I suspect they will keep using that.

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 23 Jul 2021, 23:09

More likely they will use IRIS-T as used on their Typhoons and which has already been cleared for use on the F-35 I am pretty sure. The AIM-9X is a totally different weapon to the legacy AIM-9L/M, with little or no commonality beside the name.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Ron5 » 24 Jul 2021, 13:57

Timmymagic wrote:They're (Italy) deeply involved in the CAMM-ER programme so may also decide to go with Asraam CSP on their F-35A and B.


I'm struggling to think of a component of ASRAAM that is both common with CAMM and made in Italy. Surely, Meteor integration would be the most likely to interest Italy?

I'm also a tad surprised the ASRAAM CSP requires integration above and beyond that done already. But I suppose there are H&S issues at the very least.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Defiance » 24 Jul 2021, 14:59

Ron5 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:They're (Italy) deeply involved in the CAMM-ER programme so may also decide to go with Asraam CSP on their F-35A and B.


I'm struggling to think of a component of ASRAAM that is both common with CAMM and made in Italy. Surely, Meteor integration would be the most likely to interest Italy?

I'm also a tad surprised the ASRAAM CSP requires integration above and beyond that done already. But I suppose there are H&S issues at the very least.


It would appear there is some level of commonality, enough to bring it out as a plus-point with respect to cost savings at least (dated 2017)

https://www.mbda-systems.com/2017/04/21 ... -aircraft/

MBDA is also under contract for the ASRAAM Capability Sustainment Programme (CSP) to build replenishment missiles for the Royal Air Force’s Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. The CSP effort makes use of ASRAAM’s commonality with the CAMM missile family, also being bought by the Royal Navy and British Army, to deliver extensive cost savings across the UK Armed Forces.


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