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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Jensy » 19 Feb 2019, 09:22

Gtal wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
At least it explains how Brexit ended up happening I guess! I'll leave you guys to your echochamber circlejerk!


If it is of any concern to you, I voted to remain in the EU, for a multitude of reasons, Defence being fairly high up the list (and I'm sure others here were influenced by similar issues, regardless of how they voted).
Gtal wrote:Just two substantial points for the sake of it. 1.The continent is glad as f*ck BAE and Airbus didn't merge. Merkel showed some real forsight there.
It would have beenn an even bigger clusterfuck than we already have.

So, the fact that Germany acted selfishly, rashly and jealousy against the creation of a strong unified European defence industy is now a bonus because Merkel magically predicted Brexit three years before a referendum was promised? Unfortunately it was behaviour like this that made the arguement to leave stronger.
Gtal wrote: no non-EU country can be project leader,[/b] so you will have to let the swedes take over and become a junior partner. How you like that?

The European Defence Fund, which currently stands at €90m, from 2020 will have €500m a year to spend on all defence research projects (air, land, sea and space) across Europe up to 2026. Even with an increase after 2027 to factor in acquisition costs, it's going to mean modest sums of money available for a nuclear-armed 6th gen jet capable of landing on a 40k ton carrier. As Meriv9 notes above.

Of course this all depends on whether they can overturn the small issue, that EU central funding for military equipment or development is explicitly banned by the Lisbon Treaty.

If that can be circumvented by team France/Germany/Spain, I'm sure something clever could be worked out by Team Tempest. Outsourcing whole elements of the project to the other primes for example.

I'm sorry your heart is broken. Brexit has done that to a lot of people but we still share a continent, with external issues far bigger than this. Be grateful you have the freedom to move as you wish between two rich countries.

Most in this world don't.

Jensy

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 19 Feb 2019, 20:22

Given the issues with Germany and arms exports I think we can thank our lucky stars that we're not in a consortium with them for future combat aircraft...

Inadvertently though, the argument does seem to have, for the first time, given us an idea of how many Meteor missiles that the UK is procuring.....hopefully just the first batch, with more to come of an AESA seeker variant in the 2020's. 260 missiles is the amount, and the UK is the biggest purchaser. With the recent announced purchase of 'up to' 200 AIM-120D that puts UK stocks of BVR missiles at the 460 total mark (presuming that the AIM-120C5 are not relifed) in the early/mid 2020's.

I think we can all agree that that is not enough (although more than likely it is dramatically better than today). No idea of how many Asraam we have in stock (AIM-9L and AIM-9M/P are long gone), or how many will be procured under Asraam CSP. But if its more than 500 I'd eat my hat.

In short we don't have enough missiles to put a full warload on each of our combat aircraft, let alone reload them.....in the Cold War we had 27 missiles per fighter assigned....and we're far, far better off than the rest of Europe. I remember one of the early MBDA Meteor videos showing 2 Typhoons loosing off 4 each, in reality that single engagement would be 3% of our entire Meteor stockpile gone in seconds...

It's not all about platform numbers if you don't have the weaponry to put on them.


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Pseudo » 19 Feb 2019, 22:04

Timmymagic wrote:Given the issues with Germany and arms exports I think we can thank our lucky stars that we're not in a consortium with them for future combat aircraft...

It's not all about platform numbers if you don't have the weaponry to put on them.


In fairness, Meteor's not an insurmountable problem because they can always use AMRAAM instead. The big problem is being unable to purchase the Typhoon spare parts produced by German manufacturers.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby RetroSicotte » 20 Feb 2019, 11:10

I do find the whole thing a little perplexing. We know almost nothing about the "real" schedules and behind the scenes advantages or problems, and yet people still argue over vague details for something none of us could possibly know...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 27 Feb 2019, 17:31

What, no mention of todays Australian announcement as the possible target of Williamson's comments???

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/avalon/2019/02/27/boeing-unveils-loyal-wingman-drone/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 27 Feb 2019, 20:26

Seems an ideal project to try to get on board with some of the cash form the Transformation Fund. Should be easy to match what Australia has announced it is putting in. Looking at the details available it would seem to tick quite a few of the boxes we would want, and BAe would bring some of its expertise to the table. Would probably sound the end of the Anglo/French programme which does seem to have gone very quiet since the French and Germans announced their joint programme for their next generation platform(s).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby bobp » 27 Feb 2019, 20:59

Would be nice to if they were also Carrier capable.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 27 Feb 2019, 22:04

We made our bed and now have to lay in it

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby seaspear » 28 Feb 2019, 03:41

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... rce=clavis
An interesting article suggesting that the U.S should go alone in development of its next aircraft out of security concerns even to the point of stating the F35 design was compromised

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 28 Feb 2019, 08:32

Yes they should, anyone partnering with the Americans is going to get a crap deal because the purchasing power of the Americans dwarfs everyone else.
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Feb 2019, 09:03

shark bait wrote:anyone partnering with the Americans is going to get a crap deal


You cab turn the argument around and say that one might get an overly generous deal... so as to nib any budding competitive project(s) at an early stage?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 28 Feb 2019, 18:46

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rk-456199/

Although initial studies were completed, the planned next phase of the UCAV programme had been due to launch in 2017. However, Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier confirmed at an annual results briefing in Paris on 28 February that work with “our British friends” has now ceased.

Trappier remains uncertain why negotiations with the UK Ministry of Defence stalled, but cites Brexit uncertainty and financial constraints as factors.

"I never had a clear answer to that question," he says. "I have tried to meet with the Ministry of Defence, with the secretary of state and the people in charge of procurement in Whitehall."

Trappier does not rule out that "in theory" those teams could come together to develop a single aircraft type, while adding: "but in practical terms, I don’t know". He confirms that Dassault was not approached to participate in the Tempest work.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby topman » 28 Feb 2019, 20:09

Interestingly a company I've visited a bit back are interested in a UK led project. Small nimble aerospace companies not your traditional big MoD supplier, from what I could gather most of their subbies were UK based as well. The directors felt UK itar free project could be a big boost to the UK and a reasonable sales prospect.

Now whether they were just in grabbing some MoD cash remains to be seen. Interesting though.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 28 Feb 2019, 20:22

topman wrote:Interestingly a company I've visited a bit back are interested in a UK led project. Small nimble aerospace companies not your traditional big MoD supplier, from what I could gather most of their subbies were UK based as well. The directors felt UK itar free project could be a big boost to the UK and a reasonable sales prospect.

Now whether they were just in grabbing some MoD cash remains to be seen. Interesting though.


I would agree with that statement the nonsense that goes with ITAR is such a pain. So many associate uk military aerospace with BAE there is so many smaller company’s out there would could offer some unquie things, many are providing skills to programs some mention on here and some on international programs people may hear about years from now.

There’s no reason why we couldn’t offer something very competitive with good leadership at the top.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby topman » 28 Feb 2019, 20:54

The thing that interested me was the MD felt they had a line to the RAF, even as a small company. He felt they were genuinely interested in smaller companies views and what they could provide into the really big projects.
Genuinely interesting if it meant a change in how we do business.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby topman » 28 Feb 2019, 21:31

Of course whether it means any real step change is another matter.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 28 Feb 2019, 21:51

SW1 wrote:He confirms that Dassault was not approached to participate in the Tempest work.


Color me shocked :-)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Mar 2019, 00:03

SW1 wrote:I would agree with that statement the nonsense that goes with ITAR is such a pain.


The 'regulation' makes a lot of sense, but when it is used against non-US companies, just to give US companies an edge, is really debasing the whole underlying thought.
- like the 'hand-wrangling' over the used Hornets being passed, or not allowed, from ozzie hands to Canadians

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Gabriele » 01 Mar 2019, 17:43

France's language over FCAS is, as always, spectacularly rich.

Didn't take Brexit for them to drag their feet and delay FASGW to 2020+, and to quit TELEMOS when it was time to build the thing.

They could at least shut the hell up.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 06 Mar 2019, 22:27

The USAF loyal wingman concept flies

https://www.wpafb.af.mil/News/Article-D ... al-flight/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 08 Mar 2019, 17:30

More on Kratos:

Kratos Steals Boeing’s Thunder With XQ-58A First Flight
Mar 8, 2019 Steve Trimble | Aviation Week & Space Technology

A week after Boeing unveiled a loyal wingman mockup in Australia, U.S. drone manufacturer Kratos completed the first flight of the XQ-58A Valkyrie, an experimental design ordered by the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) 30 months ago.

After launching by rail, the XQ-58A on March 6 completed the first of five planned flights for the overall program. The 76-min. flight concluded with a parachute recovery.

For Kratos, the launch of flight testing 2.5 years after contract award is a strategic coup, as the manufacturer of target drones hopes to expand into the market for large tactical unmanned aircraft systems (UAS).

The XQ-58A is designed to operate alongside manned fighters, performing a variety of strike and surveillance tasks during a mission. Credit: Air Force Research Laboratory

“This will be the biggest strategic event for Kratos in our history,” CEO Eric DeMarco said on the eve of first flight. “In 30 months, to go from a white piece of paper to a 3,000-mi.[-range] strike drone—it’s unbelievable. I have a pretty good idea of what is going to happen when this goes, and, if you [could] see me, I’m smiling.”

The XQ-58A is the first flight demonstrator launched under the AFRL’s Low-Cost Attritable Aircraft Technology. The goal of the program is to “break the escalating cost trajectory of tactically relevant aircraft,” the AFRL said in a statement.

Kratos hopes to sell hundreds or thousands of the UAS at a price point of $2-3 million each, allowing future fighters to distribute strike and surveillance tasks to unmanned wingmen. Although Boeing has similar objectives for the Airpower Teaming System unveiled in Australia, DeMarco says the XQ-58A is designed with a very different philosophy.

“They’re doing what they know how to do. They’re building an F-16-sized drone. Their drone has wheels, so it is dependent on a runway. Ours is runway-independent,” DeMarco said. “Air launch it anywhere you want, and recover it anywhere you want, because the parachutes are steerable.”

The XQ-58A also can carry weapons internally and has 50% greater range than the Boeing concept, DeMarco said.

The Loyal Wingman program enters flight testing amid a busy time for Kratos’ Unmanned Systems Division. The company has 10 unmanned aircraft programs in development or production, including target drones. The U.S. Navy declared the BQM-174 subsonic target drone’s initial operational capability in late February. Another tactical unmanned aircraft, Mako, is expected to achieve first flight in the second quarter, supporting prime contractor Dynetics in the DARPA Gremlins program.

The company is also expanding vertically. In January, Kratos acquired Florida Turbine Technologies, completing its first acquisition in seven years. Florida Turbine makes a low-cost turbofan engine, an ideal option for the attritable philosophy of the XQ-58A.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Ron5 » 08 Mar 2019, 17:30

So at least the Kratos could be launched from a carrier. Recovery might be more challenging.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby bobp » 08 Mar 2019, 17:45

Sounds like an interesting bit of kit and low cost at that.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Mar 2019, 18:04

And the range: is that really there and back? Or "transfer range" one way... for a kamikaze drone

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 08 Mar 2019, 18:26

Qinetiq and Kratos have been working together for a while especially since qinetiq bought the drone target business of meggit.

Always thought the fire shadow munition could of been interesting in the swarming expendable space a modern day alarm.


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