Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
RetroSicotte
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft General Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

F-22, J-20 and the Su-57 make it clear that you can have twin engines and useful sized internal bays.

And this is definitely on a scale with the F-22 in terms of aircraft size.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SKB
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Image
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(Photos: @RAeSTimR Tim Robinson)

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SKB
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Look how far back that double-tyred nosegear is, its almost at the mid-point of the aircraft. It would look easy for Tempest to be moved around in an enclosed space, such as a carrier hangar. Or onto a deck-edge lift. And look how far back the rear gear are. The size of the wings too. Imagine if a sea variant had folding wings? Looks very sea-worthy to me.

I would hope that a sea variant is at least considered.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SKB wrote:I would hope that a sea variant is at least considered.
= Budget quadrupled & the UK have 20 to share between the Navy and Air Force.
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SKB wrote:Look how far back that double-tyred nosegear is, its almost at the mid-point of the aircraft. It would look easy for Tempest to be moved around in an enclosed space, such as a carrier hangar. Or onto a deck-edge lift. And look how far back the rear gear are. The size of the wings too. Imagine if a sea variant had folding wings? Looks very sea-worthy to me.

I would hope that a sea variant is at least considered.
Speculation is that the nose gear is from Tornado for the purposes of the mock up, not sure if we can read too much into it.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Dahedd »

So both manned & unmanned variants? Manned aircraft paired with 1 or 2 unmanned wingman? As I'm peeking at tiny pics on my phone is it purely single seat or is there a twin cockpit option?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SKB wrote:Image
(Photos: @RAeSTimR Tim Robinson)
From this angle it sort of reminds me of the plane in Firefox... Did the England team come back from Russia with a trophy after all? ;)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Little J wrote:it sort of reminds me of the plane in Firefox...

*thinks "must have sea variant" in Russian* :mrgreen:



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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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RetroSicotte wrote:F-22, J-20 and the Su-57 make it clear that you can have twin engines and useful sized internal bays.
I'm not sure the F-22 is a great example. J-20 and SU-57 seem to make a better fist of it.

Twin engines actually make it a little easier to have an internal bay, due to hull volume and to shield the face of turbines via S-ducts which should leave internal volume for a decent bay.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Timmymagic wrote:I'm not sure the F-22 is a great example. J-20 and SU-57 seem to make a better fist of it.
What makes you say that? F-22's layout in a British format would permit it to carry 4x A2A missiles and 8x SPEAR internally. That's quite respectable, greater than F-35 even.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

question ,is this just a uk play to get back on a European French/german project ie please let us have a part in your European programme or is it going to be a genuine uk Swedish japan or who ever else interested in joining programme and potential competition to the French/german aircraft ?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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(Photos: UK Defence Journal)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

inch wrote:question ,is this just a uk play to get back on a European French/german project ie please let us have a part in your European programme or is it going to be a genuine uk Swedish japan or who ever else interested in joining programme and potential competition to the French/german aircraft ?
All to play for. Anything else is speculation.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by RetroSicotte »

http://www.janes.com/article/81766/farn ... h-included
Speaking on the opening day of the Farnborough Airshow, the head of Aeronautics, Jonas Hjelm, said that Saab has yet to decide which of the numerous ‘sixth-generation’ platforms that have recently been announced would be best suited to the Swedish company’s requirements, and that all possibilities remain open so long as its Gripen E technology features in any development path
Makes you wonder what the E actually has to offer Tempest. Certainly not engine, radar, etc. As I am aware the Gripen was said to have a good EW kit, but no idea how it compares.

Could be the biggest problem. How do you attract in a partner who's not interested in bleeding edge material, but insists you replace some of your own bleeding edge with it?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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RetroSicotte wrote:Makes you wonder what the E actually has to offer Tempest. Certainly not engine, radar, etc. As I am aware the Gripen was said to have a good EW kit, but no idea how it compares.
Apart from the maintainability aspect the truth is nothing. Engine clearly not. Radar is just a smaller Captor E. Gripen E may have decent EW fit, but it won't be on a par with F-35's. It's hard to see what Saab could bring to the party that is genuinely cutting edge apart from some cash...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:Makes you wonder what the E actually has to offer Tempest. Certainly not engine, radar, etc. As I am aware the Gripen was said to have a good EW kit, but no idea how it compares.
Apart from the maintainability aspect the truth is nothing. Engine clearly not. Radar is just a smaller Captor E. Gripen E may have decent EW fit, but it won't be on a par with F-35's. It's hard to see what Saab could bring to the party that is genuinely cutting edge apart from some cash...
Seems Japan with its similar geography and concerns, plus experience in 5th gen prototyping and AESA expertise would be the most desirable.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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RetroSicotte wrote:What makes you say that? F-22's layout in a British format would permit it to carry 4x A2A missiles and 8x SPEAR internally. That's quite respectable, greater than F-35 even.
F-22's was optimised for A2A, there wasn't much thought for A2G ordnance. As a result it's fairly limited in what it can carry, same with the YF-23 which was even more restricted.. it's got lucky in some respects due to SDB's, but it's still going to be dramatically limited on what size A2G ordnance it can carry. SU-57 and J-20 seem to have gone for a much larger main bay. Far better to have a large bay that can adapt to different munitions over the course of the aircrafts life. In hindsight the F-35's are still a little small, particularly the B's.

Looks like a big weapons bay on this..
https://twitter.com/BAESystemsplc?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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-Eddie- wrote:Seems Japan with its similar geography and concerns, plus experience in 5th gen prototyping and AESA expertise would be the most desirable
Absolutely. The Japanese are the real prize for co-operation. South Korea or Italy are consolations in comparison.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Cooper »

Timmymagic wrote: Absolutely. The Japanese are the real prize for co-operation. South Korea or Italy are consolations in comparison.
I think that's being harsh on the Italians TBH, they are somewhat overshadowed by the UK & France when it comes to defence & don't shout about it but they do have a superb indigenous aerospace industry if you look hard enough, every bit the equal of Japan.

The real prize of South Korea & Japan would be in potential SE Asian sales.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Cooper wrote:I think that's being harsh on the Italians TBH, they are somewhat overshadowed by the UK & France when it comes to defence & don't shout about it but they do have a superb indigenous aerospace industry if you look hard enough, every bit the equal of Japan.
Lot of respect for the Italians when it comes to joint projects. Rather partner with them than any other European nation.

I did mean in relation to sales and investment though.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by -Eddie- »

Cooper wrote:
Timmymagic wrote: Absolutely. The Japanese are the real prize for co-operation. South Korea or Italy are consolations in comparison.
The real prize of South Korea & Japan would be in potential SE Asian sales.
Definitely. Quite frankly Sweden with Scandinavia wouldn't offer much as I can't see Norway or Denmark replacing their expensive F-35s within 20~30 years.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

SKB wrote:I wonder if this means the number of F-35's to be bought will decrease and be boosted by a greater number of less expensive Tempests ?
Honest question, why do you think Tempest would be cheaper?
How can we make a 6th gen (or 5th+) in limited numbers (if it's just the UK, say ca. 150 airframes, if we get a couple of other nations on board such as Italy and Sweden, say ca. 350 airframes) cheaper than a mass produced (ca. 3000 airframes) 5th gen?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

-Eddie- wrote:Seems Japan with its similar geography and concerns, plus experience in 5th gen prototyping and AESA expertise would be the most desirable.
I reckon Saudi Arabia would be the most desirable partner because they're the closest we'd get to a partner that would be happy to just hand over the cash and let us get on with it. :)

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