Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote:Probably more like 8 plus 2 door gunners. Be interesting to see what the underslung load requirement might be.
OK, I have not found that underslung figure and as I was indicating the troops number came from a blurb [= on the optimistic side]
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... y-setbacks
where the 16 was contrasted with one of their own
[The 8.6-tonne AW149]
" between the 6.4-tonne AW139M (which can carry 15 passengers or up to 10 fully equipped troops), and the 10.6-tonne NH90 (which accommodates 20 fully equipped troops)."
... and with the toughest competitor.

You would not want to go anywhere nasty without the door gunners... so
- make it (?) a section
- plus
one or the other of these crammed in: Tactical Air Control Party, TACP, with an officer and SNCO and 2 signallers, which typically deploy at the company level, embedding with the unit's HQ element. Or if there are several companies engaging then an FAC as part of a Fire Support Team (FST) alongside Mortar Fire Controller(s) and Artillery Forward Observation Officer(s).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

If these new helicopters are going to be primarily aimed at giving integral mobility to the planned Rapid Response BCT then it would be useful to know the size of formation that is intended to be lifted in one go. This would dictate either or both the number of fully equipped troops each aircraft would be able to carry as well as the number of aircraft required. This would be a far more logical route to take than just coming up with number of the back of a fag packet. I may be safe to assume that when the BCT deploys a contingent of RAF Chinooks will be in attendance for the heavy lifting and one of Apache Guardian to keep others heads down, so underslung capability and anything other than door gunners can probable be dispense with as far as requirements go.

Lord Jim
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Mind you I personally think this would be an ideal replacement for the Puma, both as part of the new Rapid Response BCT and the new Ranger Regiment.
https://verticalmag.com/news/polandsele ... leprogram/

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

Lord Jim wrote:Mind you I personally think this would be an ideal replacement for the Puma, both as part of the new Rapid Response BCT and the new Ranger Regiment.
https://verticalmag.com/news/polandsele ... leprogram/
replacement for puma refurbed puma
replacement for refurb puma new puma

A149 for me

SW1
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:Mind you I personally think this would be an ideal replacement for the Puma, both as part of the new Rapid Response BCT and the new Ranger Regiment.
https://verticalmag.com/news/polandsele ... leprogram/
Following string of crashes and grounding for gearbox failures in the North Sea it’s reputation is tarnished, super Puma wouldn’t be a runner I don’t think.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:more logical route to take than just coming up with number of the back of a fag packet.
As for the latter approach:
- 30 to 40 figure been floated
- taking off crew & door gunners from the total PAX, 8-12 'dismounts'

Not all will be in one place, but in theory (using averages) 35 x 10 = 350,
add a few Chinooks coming in soon after (and doing a lot of rounds, for Logs, later)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

SD67
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

The Bristow SAR contract expires at the end of 2026. That's 20+ units right there :

https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufac ... n-20185745

I have this dream of an all AW149 fleet, economies of scale, long term viability for Yeovil, shared support etc...

SW1
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

SD67 wrote:The Bristow SAR contract expires at the end of 2026. That's 20+ units right there :

https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufac ... n-20185745

I have this dream of an all AW149 fleet, economies of scale, long term viability for Yeovil, shared support etc...
Yes it already been muted that additional aw189 (the civil variant of aw149) would be produced at Yeovil if Bristow retain the contract. Aw189 already support coastguard here and in the Falklands.

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Jensy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

Surprisingly long Daily Express article (although somewhat flexible with facts):

Image

https://admin.express.co.uk/news/uk/141 ... ted-review

Image
Best of British: High-tech helicopter will boost UK's ability to respond to global threats
A PIONEERING attack helicopter built using UK know-how can become a potent symbol of Brexit Britain, as well as offering boosting jobs, defence contractor Leonardo UK has said.
Yeovil MD, Nick Whitney, really pushing the industrial angle and mentions Leonardo's sites beyond Yeovil, in Luton and Edinburgh.

Would love to see the press release that was sent from Leonardo UK out to the media. Seems a far more assertive approach than their Comms team normally goes for.

SD67
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Good on them. Levelling up etc. And the UK Italy Industrial alliance is important ie Typhoon, Tempest.

Lord Jim
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Don't get me wrong the AW149 would be a great utility helicopter for the Army Air Corps, which is where it should reside with the RAF retaining just the Chinooks, though they would also make a nice addition to the Aviation Brigade flown by the AAC. :D

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by topman »

Lord Jim wrote:If these new helicopters are going to be primarily aimed at giving integral mobility to the planned Rapid Response BCT then it would be useful to know the size of formation that is intended to be lifted in one go. This would dictate either or both the number of fully equipped troops each aircraft would be able to carry as well as the number of aircraft required. This would be a far more logical route to take than just coming up with number of the back of a fag packet. I may be safe to assume that when the BCT deploys a contingent of RAF Chinooks will be in attendance for the heavy lifting and one of Apache Guardian to keep others heads down, so underslung capability and anything other than door gunners can probable be dispense with as far as requirements go.
I think that's an assumption I wouldn't bank on.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

They do have quite a useful range for self-deploying, though
- whereas these new things (whatever they turn out to be) will probably be flown in
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

SW1
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Lord Jim wrote:so underslung capability and anything other than door gunners can probable be dispense with as far as requirements go.
I think the helicopters out in Cyprus still have a Bambi bucket requirement so ignoring the many other uses of such a capability I think underslung capacity will be required.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

topman wrote:I think that's an assumption I wouldn't bank on.
How else is the BCT going to move its equipment around? It is basically a renamed 16AA and so is mainly going to rely on helicopters to move around, and for much of its fire support.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

As I have said in the past I would like to see 50 AW-149's with 10 based at Middle Wallop and rest at Benson the AW-149 with its 2.75 ton under slung lond capability can carry a L-118 gun or other stores in support. 20 AW-149's and 15 Chinooks should be able to move a Battalion in one lift and then support it. So if we take the 2 Para battle group which is 1300 strong it could see the Pathfinder's and say 2 Companies air dropped in and then reinforced by said helicopter force

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

I think one of the interesting things is that there will be by design fwd deployed a/c and maintenance facilities in Cyprus and Brunei with the same type we have for medium supt which isn’t something that has happened since the Wessex and maybe quite useful

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote:although somewhat flexible with facts
So fits right in here eh? :D

topman
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by topman »

Lord Jim wrote:
topman wrote:I think that's an assumption I wouldn't bank on.
How else is the BCT going to move its equipment around? It is basically a renamed 16AA and so is mainly going to rely on helicopters to move around, and for much of its fire support.
What equipment would this be?
What units does the BCT consist of?

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by topman »

Tempest414 wrote:As I have said in the past I would like to see 50 AW-149's with 10 based at Middle Wallop and rest at Benson the AW-149 with its 2.75 ton under slung lond capability can carry a L-118 gun or other stores in support. 20 AW-149's and 15 Chinooks should be able to move a Battalion in one lift and then support it. So if we take the 2 Para battle group which is 1300 strong it could see the Pathfinder's and say 2 Companies air dropped in and then reinforced by said helicopter force
When was the last time any country used 35 helicopters in one go?

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by topman »

SW1 wrote:I think one of the interesting things is that there will be by design fwd deployed a/c and maintenance facilities in Cyprus and Brunei with the same type we have for medium supt which isn’t something that has happened since the Wessex and maybe quite useful
I'll believe it when I see it. Trying to tie up stuff like that, is like trying to plat fog.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

topman wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:As I have said in the past I would like to see 50 AW-149's with 10 based at Middle Wallop and rest at Benson the AW-149 with its 2.75 ton under slung lond capability can carry a L-118 gun or other stores in support. 20 AW-149's and 15 Chinooks should be able to move a Battalion in one lift and then support it. So if we take the 2 Para battle group which is 1300 strong it could see the Pathfinder's and say 2 Companies air dropped in and then reinforced by said helicopter force
When was the last time any country used 35 helicopters in one go?
very good question however we did use 15 at the end of last year in Wessex storm to help move the 2 Para battle group around and 21 aircraft in total

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote:move the 2 Para battle group around and 21 aircraft in total
Was the difference between 15 (helos) and the 21 total accounted for by the initial drop?
- as per upthread, Chinooks could get quite far under their 'own power' but the smaller helicopters would likely be flown in ( assuming no time for 'shipping')
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

It was 9 Chinook , 6 Puma , 4 Apache and 2 Wildcats so 21 helicopters there were also 3 A400 and a C-130 used for Para drop and resupply

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

topman wrote:When was the last time any country used 35 helicopters in one go?
So looking back in 2010 on the Feb 13 90 Chinooks plus supporting helicopters were used in operation Moshtarak

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