Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

[Lord Jim]

Interestingly, whilst the US Army is considering reducing its purchase of the JLTV, the USMC has tripled the size of its requirement from 5500 to 15390 vehicles. This will replace all its HMMWVs on a one for one basis. This si in accordance with the USMC's "Force Design 2030" programme.

[Ron5]

Presumably not great news for a UK JLTV order ..



Read the thread (and source pdf if you have the stamina) for an explanation. But as a spoiler, the new Treasury rules places UK manufacturing on a higher priority than pure value for money when making procurement decisions. A complete 180 degree turnabout from previous.

Osborne and Hammond will be turning in their graves.

[whitelancer]

About time too. Perhaps they will also stop trying to treat the MOD as if its a business and we will see the end of the Head Office and fulfilment centres!

[SW1]

Wondered why this appeared

[ArmChairCivvy]

Wondered why this appeared

Could be a challenge (isn't it monocoque... is that a noun or an attribute, btw ) for getting the weight down
- carbon et al fibres too expensive
- steel too heavy
- how to mix in alu/ ceramics into that kind of chassis/ body combo?

[Ron5]

I wonder if Eagle, in both 4x4 and 6x6 and a production line offered in the UK, now becomes the front runner for both classes of MRV(P)?

A solution that at least Think Defence has been pushing as a way to cut down numbers of types, and therefore increased efficiency of training, maintenance & spares holding.

I have no idea how it technically stacks up to JLTV tho.

[RunningStrong]

Wondered why this appeared

Could be a challenge (isn't it monocoque... is that a noun or an attribute, btw ) for getting the weight down
- carbon et al fibres too expensive
- steel too heavy
- how to mix in alu/ ceramics into that kind of chassis/ body combo?

It's modular, this forum's favourite feature!

[SW1]

I wonder if Eagle, in both 4x4 and 6x6 and a production line offered in the UK, now becomes the front runner for both classes of MRV(P)?

A solution that at least Think Defence has been pushing as a way to cut down numbers of types, and therefore increased efficiency of training, maintenance & spares holding.

I have no idea how it technically stacks up to JLTV tho.

I would hope it is were this review end up with something like eagle it will be the most numerous vehicles in the army and one that spawns many variants that over time will evolve to incorporate newer technology in latter batches that would allow design involvement within the UK as well as using common subsystems as well as production lines and multiple uk suppliers for the initial batches. You would also hope a light recon vehicle similar could be developed with common systems to support the units using such vehicles.

The other contender for such a vehicle family fleet would be supacat.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The other contender for such a vehicle family fleet would be supacat.

Not sure about that, but as Eagle would meet the 4 & 6 wheeled rqrmnts, the Supacat recovery vehicle should be bought on the side.

[MikeKiloPapa]

I have no idea how it technically stacks up to JLTV tho.

Quite favorably if the Danish army patrol vehicle competition is to be believed. JLTV is a much cheaper vehicle and apparently it shows.

Here in DK it went up against the Otokar Cobra II, Foxhound and Eagle 5 and initially i thought they had a strong bid......Impressive specs(at least on paper), used by our most important ally, produced and used in large numbers by the US thereby guaranteeing excellent long term plarform support. And it was the cheapest by quite a margin.

Despite this, it was one of the first to be eliminated from the competition and didnt make the final downselect(which stood between Foxhound and Eagle 5)
Now i dont know the specifics of the evaluation, but apparently our test and trials teams were NOT impressed with the JLTV at all, citing poor fit and finish and general build quality. Reliability and off-road performance was said to be disappointing also ( the latter quite surprising considering the JLTVs fancy TAK4i variable height suspension???) ...
I must admit i dont know the veracity of those statements,....BUT i did often speak with REME maintainers in Camp Bastion when i was posted there a decade ago, and i vividly remember them moaning about the unreliable and maintenance intensive suspension on the Oshkoshes (MTVR and PLS/HEMMT i guess? ) .

[Jake1992]

Hopefully we’ll see HMG choice to for a family developed from Foxhound and take into account both the tax income and economic growth it could generate along with compositing the MOD for this.

[SD67]

The DK evaluation of JLTV sounds very similar to the reputation of US commercial vehicles - build them cheap, buy in bulk, use for 10 years then throw away/sell on. I think someone has been bedazzled by the list price price which let's face it is often marketing bumpf. Total cost of ownership over a full lifecycle is a different thing.

I doubt Foxhound is scalable to the level required. A carbon fibre monocoque is F1 technology. How does maintenance work, and is it even repairable?

GD Eagle sounds very interesting in 4x4 and 6x6, if local production is offered. We should be looking to retire as many fleets as possible with a steady drumbeat and evolution. The spec sheet says 5.9 litre Cummins B series engine - built in Lancashire for forty years and has powered everything from the Leyland Roadrunner to the upgraded CVRT.

Though my preference would be Supacat evolution of the Jackal/Coyote platform, we should be able to develop this stuff ourselves.

[Jake1992]

The DK evaluation of JLTV sounds very similar to the reputation of US commercial vehicles - build them cheap, buy in bulk, use for 10 years then throw away/sell on. I think someone has been bedazzled by the list price price which let's face it is often marketing bumpf. Total cost of ownership over a full lifecycle is a different thing.

I doubt Foxhound is scalable to the level required. A carbon fibre monocoque is F1 technology. How does maintenance work, and is it even repairable?

GD Eagle sounds very interesting in 4x4 and 6x6, if local production is offered. We should be looking to retire as many fleets as possible with a steady drumbeat and evolution. The spec sheet says 5.9 litre Cummins B series engine - built in Lancashire for forty years and has powered everything from the Leyland Roadrunner to the upgraded CVRT.

Though my preference would be Supacat evolution of the Jackal/Coyote platform, we should be able to develop this stuff ourselves.

I agree the list price does seem to of been what’s grab the MOD but we’ve already seen that increase once abd wouldn’t doubt it doing so again, and like you say life cost is a very different thing.

Weren’t there some talk of Foxhound developing a alloy based set to replace the carbon fibre abd bring down price ? ( which by the way at £900k per unit on a small nech run isn’t too bad IMO )

This is quiet an interesting look at the possible development of both Foxhound and Supacat for the MRVP role.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/

[Lord Jim]

Further development of the Supercat HMT400 and HMT600 platforms would be an interesting option for the Army to pursue as a solution to the MRV(P) requirements. The fact that the base platform has possibilities to be further developed in to even more variants, would give the Army a platform very similar if not superior to the French Army's Griffon, and allow the formation of a number of viable Motorised Infantry units able to be deployed on low intensity combat operation and even those such as the ongoing operations in Mali for example.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I had missed the word 'un-integrated' in the UK Landpower summary of Feb, 2019
" Originally, a figure of US$ 430,000 per vehicle was quoted by the UK MoD when it announced the decision to acquire the Oshkosh JLTV via an FMS contract. However, according to sources within DE&S, the un-integrated price has risen to US$ 700,000. "
I had assumed (wrongly?) that the bulk of any rise was coming from the integration items and opting for the higher protection level
- with the £ soon in a new tail spin we are getting v close to the Ocelot/Foxhound unit price
- though the JLTV still wins with the many (existing) versions

Another thing I had not appreciated is that seemingly the earlier half of the total purchased, around 400 Jackals in two variants, has been run to ground on Ops. Of the 400, the Army
" took more than 200 Jackal Mk2A into the core equipment fleet after Afghanistan."
-UK Landpower adds that some 165 Coyote TSVs were purchased, and all were taken into the core fleet... making the total of the two versions about the same as the total for the newer Foxhounds

Horses (jackals/ hounds) for courses would be the obvious next step to take, and only then buying new versions of either of both of those platforms
... or will Eagle be hitting birdies across all the three rqrmnt categories

[RunningStrong]

Further development of the Supercat HMT400 and HMT600 platforms would be an interesting option for the Army to pursue as a solution to the MRV(P) requirements.

But development was never part of MRV(P). The intent has always been to take a proven platform.

Suggesting we go bespoke will just mean a longer wait, bigger price for similar capability at platforms in this category. It's not a battle-winning programme, but a necessary one to support the battle-winning headline procurements.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The intent has always been to take a proven platform.

Suggesting we go bespoke will just mean a longer wait, bigger price for similar capability at platforms in this category.

Agreed. Does Eagle have all the versions required/ desired?

[SD67]

Here's an idea :

Cancel Ajax. As part of the settlement give GDLS a contract to put Eagle 4x4 and 6x6 into production in that new factory in Wales.

Standardise on Boxer for the 40 t category

[RunningStrong]

Here's an idea :
Cancel Ajax. As part of the settlement give GDLS a contract to put Eagle 4x4 and 6x6 into production in that new factory in Wales.

Standardise on Boxer for the 40 t category

Replace one contract with one worth a fifth of the value? I'm sure they'll be up for that...

[SD67]

Here's an idea :
Cancel Ajax. As part of the settlement give GDLS a contract to put Eagle 4x4 and 6x6 into production in that new factory in Wales.

Standardise on Boxer for the 40 t category

Replace one contract with one worth a fifth of the value? I'm sure they'll be up for that...

3 billion spent so far on Ajax ie sunk cost, 2-2.5 to completion. MVRP Group 1 is 1 billion, I'm assuming Group 2 is similar. If the alternative is cancellation and a messy arbitration action they should jump at it.

[RunningStrong]

Here's an idea :
Cancel Ajax. As part of the settlement give GDLS a contract to put Eagle 4x4 and 6x6 into production in that new factory in Wales.

Standardise on Boxer for the 40 t category

Replace one contract with one worth a fifth of the value? I'm sure they'll be up for that...

3 billion spent so far on Ajax ie sunk cost, 2-2.5 to completion. MVRP Group 1 is 1 billion, I'm assuming Group 2 is similar. If the alternative is cancellation and a messy arbitration action they should jump at it.

You're confusing MODs sunk costs with the contractors sunk costs.

[ArmChairCivvy]

confusing MODs sunk costs with the contractors sunk costs

whereas the industry won't, anymore, as evidenced by the BAE Land (UK, leaving overseas sites out) which has shrunk to their range of vehicles (the Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank, Warrior infantry fighting vehicle, Terrier combat engineer vehicle and military bridging systems) and employ around 1,700 people.
- only Chally (JV) and bridging realistically bringing in new orders

More generally, the UK order volumes are so much on the thin side that no one does R&D and experimenting off their own back.

[MikeKiloPapa]

The spec sheet says 5.9 litre Cummins B series engine - built in Lancashire for forty years and has powered everything from the Leyland Roadrunner to the upgraded CVRT. .

The 5.9L ISBe engine is used in the "old" Eagle 4, whereas Eagle 5 has the new 6.7L common rail B-series engine. Dont know if that is also manufactured in Lancashire?

[SD67]

The spec sheet says 5.9 litre Cummins B series engine - built in Lancashire for forty years and has powered everything from the Leyland Roadrunner to the upgraded CVRT. .

The 5.9L ISBe engine is used in the "old" Eagle 4, whereas Eagle 5 has the new 6.7L common rail B-series engine. Dont know if that is also manufactured in Lancashire?

https://www.cummins.com/engines/qsb67qsb7

Looks like the 6.7 common rail is built in Darlington as well, at least for some applications.
I really wish our MOD would ruthlessly standardise. Boxer and Ajax both use basically the same MTU unit but that's surely a fluke. We used to be so good at this stuff, how many aircraft were powered by a RR Merlin..

[SD67]

Here's an idea :
Cancel Ajax. As part of the settlement give GDLS a contract to put Eagle 4x4 and 6x6 into production in that new factory in Wales.

Standardise on Boxer for the 40 t category

Replace one contract with one worth a fifth of the value? I'm sure they'll be up for that...

3 billion spent so far on Ajax ie sunk cost, 2-2.5 to completion. MVRP Group 1 is 1 billion, I'm assuming Group 2 is similar. If the alternative is cancellation and a messy arbitration action they should jump at it.

You're confusing MODs sunk costs with the contractors sunk costs.

Don't understand how they could be much different, unlikely GD has done work they haven't been paid for, if anything the reverse is probably the case. Bottom line - Ajax is a troubled program, if the Army are interested in Eagle for MVRP there's probably a deal to be done