Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

[BB85]

It can't be as simple as the head sets amplifying the noise from the engine into the crews ears. I would like to think they all had the brains to stop testing or at least turn them down before their hearing was damaged. It also could have been fixed immediately by testing different noise cancelling headsets especially if GD have them available.

[RunningStrong]

It can't be as simple as the head sets amplifying the noise from the engine into the crews ears. I would like to think they all had the brains to stop testing or at least turn them down before their hearing was damaged. It also could have been fixed immediately by testing different noise cancelling headsets especially if GD have them available.

Long term noise exposure is difficult to measure with the human ear. Just like your eyes adapt to light, your brain adapts the noise processing to the new baseline.

And if a headset is supposed to have a noise cancelling mic and provide X dB noise attenuation, if the mic then stamps amplifying the background noise or the noise attenuation isn't as stated, it's hard to identify that it is the equipment at fault.

[mr.fred]

It can't be as simple as the head sets amplifying the noise from the engine into the crews ears. I would like to think they all had the brains to stop testing or at least turn them down before their hearing was damaged. It also could have been fixed immediately by testing different noise cancelling headsets especially if GD have them available.

You’re welcome to review the sources I linked.
Damaging noise isn’t immediately obvious. Often injury would only be noticeable once the damaging noise has stopped and sometimes it isn’t noticeable in day to day life. You’ll note that they are currently calling potentially affected personnel for testing, so it isn’t necessarily obvious.

[whitelancer]

The problems with headsets in the report up thread have existed for a long time. Indeed when Challenger was introduced new kit was issued and hearing tests implemented because of excessive engine noise. However if problems have been reported concerning Ajax it must mean that the noise must be noticeable worse compared to legacy platforms. Improvements to headsets while welcome will not solve the problem of excessive noise and vibration.
However if the build quality is as bad as has been reported noise and vibrations issues are irrelevant. The Army cant accept Ajax into service without first getting quality issues sorted, otherwise they will just be storing problems up for the future. Besides which it could solve the noise and vibration problems.
All a bit of a mess.

[seaspear]

Avoiding vibration injuries cannot be just addressed by headsets the contact point of the vibration may be from the floor to the feet from the uninsulated seat, from contact points to the hands
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/83-110/default.html
https://www.healthyworkinglives.scot/wo ... trols.aspx

[Lord Jim]

Does this mean that GDUK will have to provide the Army with new PPE so they can operate the Ajax? The contract is for fully capable vehicles that meet all the Army's requirements, so surely needing new PPE to be able to actually use it comes under that or at least it should do. GDUK provides enough PPE to cover the number of crew needed for all the Ajax on order and the Army has to cough up for its other AFVs in service. If they don't the lawyers will be queuing up for compensation claims for any noise related injuries that affect the careers of personnel who operate existing or future platforms.

[seaspear]

But that's the problem ppe does not address vibration hazards it requires an engineering solution, there are known solutions that would reduce vibration

[mr.fred]

Avoiding vibration injuries cannot be just addressed by headsets the contact point of the vibration may be from the floor to the feet from the uninsulated seat, from contact points to the hands
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/83-110/default.html
https://www.healthyworkinglives.scot/wo ... trols.aspx

Nobody said that vibration issues were being addressed by headsets. There are two problems reported.
The first is noise and this is the one that has provably caused injuries. This was caused by the MoD issued PPE and replacing it fixes the problem. A dstl report of two years ago notes that this has occurred on the current fleet as well.

The second is vibration and is still being addressed, the fix for this hasn’t been reported, if it exists yet. Vibration has resulted in reports of injury, but the effects have only been temporary so far. i.e. the symptoms have cleared up by the day after they are reported.

[mr.fred]

Does this mean that GDUK will have to provide the Army with new PPE so they can operate the Ajax? The contract is for fully capable vehicles that meet all the Army's requirements, so surely needing new PPE to be able to actually use it comes under that or at least it should do. GDUK provides enough PPE to cover the number of crew needed for all the Ajax on order and the Army has to cough up for its other AFVs in service. If they don't the lawyers will be queuing up for compensation claims for any noise related injuries that affect the careers of personnel who operate existing or future platforms.

I really recommend reading the dstl report I linked earlier.

[Lord Jim]

Sarcasm is hard to portray.

[Lord Jim]

I really recommend reading the dstl report I linked earlier.

A very interesting read. The fact that headsets are seen as part of the vehicle rather than issued to service personnel as individual PPE is something that should already have a solution in hand considering the report was from 2018 and that regular updates have been received from service personnel since then.

This begs the questions was GDUK contracted to ensure the noise levels within Ajax were within a range that would be attenuated by current issue headsets? It would also be interesting to see if the noise levels from the Ajax were seen to be greater then legacy vehicles by the service personnel partaking in the trials.

This does however put the vibration issues that have been discovered with Ajax are apparently going to be the key factor in whether the platform will be accepted into service, and this seems to possibly be the cause of the majority of subsequent problems found on the platform. Whereas better headsets will help with the noise issues, fixing the vibration could involve some serious and costly rectification, and the cost for that will fall on GDUK.

[seaspear]

Avoiding vibration injuries cannot be just addressed by headsets the contact point of the vibration may be from the floor to the feet from the uninsulated seat, from contact points to the hands
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/83-110/default.html
https://www.healthyworkinglives.scot/wo ... trols.aspx

Nobody said that vibration issues were being addressed by headsets. There are two problems reported.
The first is noise and this is the one that has provably caused injuries. This was caused by the MoD issued PPE and replacing it fixes the problem. A dstl report of two years ago notes that this has occurred on the current fleet as well.

The second is vibration and is still being addressed, the fix for this hasn’t been reported, if it exists yet. Vibration has resulted in reports of injury, but the effects have only been temporary so far. i.e. the symptoms have cleared up by the day after they are reported.

I read Carew Wilks and Scott Milnes answers in the enquiry and they admitted to the whole body and hand vibration injuries I could not find in the answers the statements that these were temporary injuries, certainly not an answer from them to suggest they knew how to address the cause of the vibration issue if as in the evidence there was vibration to the hands and the discussion was white finger refer to document
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg175.pdf then you have an issue,Im not talking of whole of the body another injury type also reported , certainly prolonged exposure would be dangerous for the users Carew Wilks and Scott Milne have not said this vehicle is safe to use only stuck to their guns on production targets would be met

[seaspear]

Have the trials from the Millbrook proving grounds for vibration on the Ajax been released, this report from June stated they were to be next month
https://www.forces.net/news/ajax-whats- ... ed-vehicle

[marktigger]

why does this sound so like the inter war period of tank development?

[Lord Jim]

At least then they had some good ideas and engineers who could have realised them, they just didn't have the money and well we had just fought the war to end all wars. Now Governments since the 1980s just don't care even when the Body Bags start arriving at Brize Norton. Mind you the Government's and MoD's idea of "Low risk", is distinctly different from what most people's is.

[abc123]

Imagine if the WCSP is reborn to provide a replacement for Ajax rather than an IFV!!

Imagine the Army leadership and MoD admitting they made a mistake in cancelling WCSP.

Oh look, a flying pig

Or any mistake at all. Especially if the persons who did actually make a mistake actually admit that? OMG, horror...

[mr.fred]

I read Carew Wilks and Scott Milnes answers in the enquiry and they admitted to the whole body and hand vibration injuries I could not find in the answers the statements that these were temporary injuries,

You need to look at the second half of the meeting where the Surgeon General is speaking.
The response to Q147, on the bottom of p39 of the pdf is:

Major General Hodgetts: We have received nine formal reports on eight service personnel through the Army Incident Notification Cell to date about vibration injury. Those are symptoms in soldiers such as back and joint pains and tingling in hands and feet. All those cases have been transient, so by the time they see the medical centre the following day, those symptoms have resolved.

[Lord Jim]

That is good news for those involved but shows that at present Ajax is far from being combat ready as imagine being a crew member on combat ops operating for a sustained period of time, and unable to leave the vehicle, all the time suffering from the vibration issues. I just hope the Army does not accept a sticking plaster solution to try to get the vehicle into operational service.

[seaspear]

This is an article suggesting pathways for reducing vibration in tracked vehicles worth reading it also mentions British experience in doing this with the Warthog
https://www.dsta.gov.sg/docs/default-so ... f?sfvrsn=2
This is a study of the Viking for noise and vibration would be interesting if there is a comparative test for the Ajax
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4720304578

[seaspear]

I read Carew Wilks and Scott Milnes answers in the enquiry and they admitted to the whole body and hand vibration injuries I could not find in the answers the statements that these were temporary injuries,

You need to look at the second half of the meeting where the Surgeon General is speaking.
The response to Q147, on the bottom of p39 of the pdf is:

Major General Hodgetts: We have received nine formal reports on eight service personnel through the Army Incident Notification Cell to date about vibration injury. Those are symptoms in soldiers such as back and joint pains and tingling in hands and feet. All those cases have been transient, so by the time they see the medical centre the following day, those symptoms have resolved.

Interesting to reflect on what is meant by a temporary injury usually meaning an injury that will recover, time spans for vibration type injuries symptoms may not show for some time after exposure were there ongoing tests ?
https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_ag ... fects.html
there is this study on skin tissue rats exposed to the vibration I am not suggesting similar results may be found with the crews of the vehicles in question just to suggest that because you do not have a problem the next day after exposure may be optimistic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235911/

[Ron5]

If Ajax falters, this is waiting in the wings ..

[mr.fred]

If Ajax falters, this is waiting in the wings ..

Is the giant bucket behind the CV90?

[Ron5]

That might be the 50mm gun. Not sure.

[sol]

That might be the 50mm gun. Not sure.

According to article in the Shephard Media it is indeed a 50mm gun.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/land ... es-london/

Article is suggesting that this is a new D-series turret design, developed for the Dutch CV9035 upgrade, just with different gun for presentation.

[BB85]

Imagine placing an order for an upgraded turret in 2021 and achieving IOC just 3 years later.
How LM won the Warrior contract in 2011 is beyond me, but when they could not demonstrate a reliable turret design by 2012 when BAE already had one the contract should have been torn up and awarded back to BAE and the LEP still would have been delivered around 2016. It does feel like civil servants who run these programs want to extend them as long as possible to get their entire career out of them.