Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

[Tempest414]

No we need to sort Ajax out and see it into service

The UOR's have played havoc with the Army more than any other service and has seen upgrade programs pushed back and back what was needed was for the Bulldog upgrade to take place from 2000 to 2005 followed by the Warrior and Challenger upgrade from 2006 to 2012 and and then Bulldog replaced from 2016 until now with Boxer this would have allowed CVR(T) to be replaced now as it is it has all come at once and the Army can't cope and don't have the money because it has been spent on the UOR fleet

[mr.fred]

Scrap program now ,buy off shelf , no alterations ,a few possibilities out there ,done

Cool, have you got the necessary £5bn?
I don’t think I’ll find it down the back of my sofa.

I guess the Army will have to wait a little more for new vehicles, but they’ve soldiered on* so far with no issues from using obsolescent vehicles.

*geddit?

[inch]

Ok another possibility ,scrap the army except homeland defence ,say our contri

[inch]

Soz not Finnish typing on phone ,...say to NATO our contribution will be from now on navy ,air force and special forces cyber,space ,and if any money gets saved if gov doesn't nick it spend more on these

[ArmChairCivvy]

the Bulldog upgrade to take place from 2000 to 2005 followed by the Warrior and Challenger upgrade from 2006 to 2012 and and then Bulldog replaced from 2016 until now with Boxer this would have allowed CVR(T) to be replaced now

Oh, ouch!

they’ve soldiered on* so far with no issues from using obsolescent vehicles.

*geddit?

Fat chance

[RunningStrong]

Scrap program now ,buy off shelf , no alterations ,a few possibilities out there ,done

Do you know an OTS product with Bowman?

[RunningStrong]

Regarding LM, I do not know what is the state of the Turret they have developed for the WCSP. If it is up to scratch then why not contract them to at least trial the turret on a Boxer Mission Module? Mind you if they had sorted out all the issues with the Warrior turret, it is surprising that they are issues remaining for the Ajax, or then again is the issue with the hull when the turret is fitted?

What do we want? A fully integrated 21st century turret with sensor fusion and upto date C4I, or a steam gunnery turret that just looks the part?

[tomuk]

Scrap program now ,buy off shelf , no alterations ,a few possibilities out there ,done

Do you know an OTS product with Bowman?

If what sort of 'radio' is fitted to a vehicle is the deciding factor as to its suitability then your procurement system is completely broken.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Scrap program now ,buy off shelf , no alterations ,a few possibilities out there ,done

Do you know an OTS product with Bowman?

If what sort of 'radio' is fitted to a vehicle is the deciding factor as to its suitability then your procurement system is completely broken.

I am so sorry, @ tomuk, as you introduce good points onto the RN discussions, but
... on this one you are completely out of your depth

[RunningStrong]

Scrap program now ,buy off shelf , no alterations ,a few possibilities out there ,done

Do you know an OTS product with Bowman?

If what sort of 'radio' is fitted to a vehicle is the deciding factor as to its suitability then your procurement system is completely broken.

You haven't a clue.

Bowman/Morpheus isn't just a radio, it's a whole network of encrypted voice and data, combined with BISA, and mesh networking. It's a force multiplier and it's the backbone that integrates platforms like AJAX with indirect fires, with aerial assets and with naval assets too.

[mr.fred]

If what sort of 'radio' is fitted to a vehicle is the deciding factor as to its suitability then your procurement system is completely broken.

If your procurement system buys a vehicle that cannot communicate with the rest of your army then I’d say that’s worse.

[tomuk]

Scrap program now ,buy off shelf , no alterations ,a few possibilities out there ,done

Do you know an OTS product with Bowman?

If what sort of 'radio' is fitted to a vehicle is the deciding factor as to its suitability then your procurement system is completely broken.

You haven't a clue.

Bowman/Morpheus isn't just a radio, it's a whole network of encrypted voice and data, combined with BISA, and mesh networking. It's a force multiplier and it's the backbone that integrates platforms like AJAX with indirect fires, with aerial assets and with naval assets too.

I know what Bowman/Morpheous is that is why I put radio in quotation marks. One would hope that such an 'open' system as Morpheus could be integrated into whatever vehicle was procured.

More widely I appreciate it is not as straight forward as cancelling Ajax and buying something of the shelf. Hopefully GDLS/LM/MOD can sort it out.

It is unfortunate that Ajax (and all Army vehicle procurement) is in such a mess. You mentioned the potential loss of jobs in Wales if Ajax is cancelled while that would be difficult but this whole saga has already cost jobs. I was witness to the bankruptcy of an engineering firm whose a large part of their turnover was doing metal fabrication as subcontractor to GKN/Alvis Vickers/BAE/RBSL Telford. They couldn't hold out and are no longer here to take advantage of Boxer/Challenger 3 work.

[RunningStrong]

I know what Bowman/Morpheous is that is why I put radio in quotation marks. One would hope that such an 'open' system as Morpheus could be integrated into whatever vehicle was procured.

Well if you want to integrate a bespoke UK capability then it's no longer OTS is it? Regardless of being 'open', there are still elements of SWAP, hull-turret channels and through-armour connections required to make such a system work. None of which have anything to do with it being part of EvO.

More widely I appreciate it is not as straight forward as cancelling Ajax and buying something of the shelf. Hopefully GDLS/LM/MOD can sort it out.

It is unfortunate that Ajax (and all Army vehicle procurement) is in such a mess. You mentioned the potential loss of jobs in Wales if Ajax is cancelled while that would be difficult this whole saga has already cost jobs. I was witness to the bankruptcy of an engineering firm whose a large part of their turnover was doing metal fabrication as subcontractor to GKN/Alvis Vickers/BAE/RBSL Telford. They couldn't hold out and are no longer here to take advantage of Boxer/Challenger 3 work.

But that's nothing to do with AJAX. They would have been contracted for work on CR2 and Terrier. If they went bust at the end of those contracts that's down to poor management.

And yes, cancelling AJAX would have far greater UK-wide job impacts than just Merthyr.

[Lord Jim]

Ah the good old "Jobs creation scheme", run and paid for by the MoD to make the Government look good to the voters in deprived areas like south Wales.

[tomuk]

I know what Bowman/Morpheous is that is why I put radio in quotation marks. One would hope that such an 'open' system as Morpheus could be integrated into whatever vehicle was procured.

Well if you want to integrate a bespoke UK capability then it's no longer OTS is it? Regardless of being 'open', there are still elements of SWAP, hull-turret channels and through-armour connections required to make such a system work. None of which have anything to do with it being part of EvO.

I know its a bit more complicated then the Wireless Set No. 19 which my grandad used in WWII but fitting a UK specific 'radio' shouldn't stop you procuring the vehicles/platforms you need. Does Boxer/CV90/Bradley/other armoured/turreted vehicles etc not have similar connections/channels for their country specific comms fits?

They would have been contracted for work on CR2 and Terrier. If they went bust at the end of those contracts that's down to poor management.

With reference to job losses I'm sure the superb management at GDLS/LM will resolve the AJAX problems and no redundancies will be needed.

[RunningStrong]

I know its a bit more complicated then the Wireless Set No. 19 which my grandad used in WWII but fitting a UK specific 'radio' shouldn't stop you procuring the vehicles/platforms you need. Does Boxer/CV90/Bradley/other armoured/turreted vehicles etc not have similar connections/channels for their country specific comms fits?

Not necessarily. Because not all nations run their AFV fleet with the equivalent of a complex Bowman fit.

Regardless, unless we adopt another nation's radio from and exiting CV90/Boxer/Bradley, it will not be OTS. Unless we buy BV206?

[RunningStrong]

Ah the good old "Jobs creation scheme", run and paid for by the MoD to make the Government look good to the voters in deprived areas like south Wales.

Seems good enough for the MOD to pay over the odds for ships and planes in England and Scotland.

[inch]

I know it might have seemed a throwaway remark about scrap army but should it be ? ,The mod can't seem to get things right in army top brass and mod equipment , always a total screw up .plus do we need an army as such ,EU can defend itself as far as I'm concerned ,our comical small contribution not a game changer on land ,and EU got land forces/men equipment and alot of them small or non existent naval forces , which is fine they don't need them ,but does this Island need the land forces ? ,not saying we should not contribute to defence of EU or NATO but only in air, naval, special forces, intelligence, cyber , nuclear umbrella etc ,so I'm really starting to think do we need an army and couldn't the cash be spent upgrading the other remaining needs and supplying more manpower to these ,then like the Ajax , warrior., challenger issues and the never ending or learning diabolical army decision makers become a mute point , personally I'd be happier with a uk land based ballistic missile defense system either land or sea based or both than a load of Ajax , warrior , challenger etc , cheers

[Tempest414]

Yes I do believe the UK should have a Army it has severed Europe well across history for me we get lost in fades like now with BCT's I would prefer to see Battle groups formed these would start at Company level and go up to Division level with 4 types

Armoured
Heavy Mechanised
Light Mechanised ( Mobile Protected )
Air Assault

All of these would take a similar look at Company, Battalion and Brigade level battle groups with a

Recce group
Infantry group
Artillery group
Logistics group

So a Mechanised Battalion battle group would be centred around a Infantry Battalion with a Cavalry company and Artillery, Logistics support groups formed from the Brigade battle group which would be made up of

1 x Cavalry regiment
2 x Mech Infantry Battalions
1 x Aatillery support group ( Artillery , Air defence , UAV )
1 x Logistics suppot group ( RLC , RE , RAMC , REME , MP )

[Ron5]

Solved ..

[RunningStrong]

If AJAX gets cancelled...

Does HMS Agincourt revert to previous?

[Tempest414]

Solved ..

But were you put the 30mm turret

[ArmChairCivvy]

being part of EvO.

Slang ... that I don't understand?

a Mechanised Battalion battle group would be centred around a Infantry Battalion with a Cavalry company and Artillery, Logistics support groups formed from the Brigade battle group which would be made up of

1 x Cavalry regiment
2 x Mech Infantry Battalions
1 x Aatillery support group ( Artillery , Air defence , UAV )
1 x Logistics suppot group ( RLC , RE , RAMC , REME , MP )

A BCT

[RunningStrong]

being part of EvO.

Slang ... that I don't understand?

It's not slang.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/morpheus-pr ... or-defence

[mr.fred]

It's not slang.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/morpheus-pr ... or-defence

It kind of is.
An opaque TLA that, to be frank, doesn’t make much more sense when expanded.
There is further expansion by adding missing terms here:
https://generaldynamics.uk.com/systems/ ... -open-evo/