Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

[Lord Jim]

They need to tell GD to fix things within a set timeframe with their own funds, as no more cash will be coming from the MoD and the contract is at serious risk of being cancelled if they fail to do this. This has simply gone on for too long and tey cannot blame the MoD for imposing a weapon system on them this time.

Maybe LM should also be contracted to start investigating fitting the Ajax Turret, assuming that now works, onto the Boxer otherwise they might as well just close their Ampthill facility now.

This is just another in a massively long line of fiascos regarding the search for a replacement for the CVR(T) family. Should we also look at the Fennek to at least give a reasonable close Recce Platform that is small, stealthy, and well equipped, as well as easily deployed.

[bobp]

Time to cancel no way should they waste any more cash on this.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

What a pantomime...I say this as someone who was very enthusiastic about Scout and GDLS’ bid initially.

[SW1]

I’m not sure where or how this goes from here without real pain. If it goes what about the workforce making or supposedly making them and the soldiers waiting for them? If it doesn’t can it be fixed in what time frames and at what cost to who.

If the plug pulled is it Boxer and challenger along the lines of the french going fwd but we need to buy more of them and does it alter the fundamental shape of 3 div announced barely a month ago.

What’s the transition from the now to end result

It’s almost a nimrod mr4 catch 22.

[RunningStrong]

They need to tell GD to fix things within a set timeframe with their own funds, as no more cash will be coming from the MoD and the contract is at serious risk of being cancelled if they fail to do this. .

LOL.

What if the things that needed fixing were MOD supplied and specified?

[RunningStrong]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15123499/ ... e-hearing/

NEW tanks which cost the Army £5.5billion were grounded after making troops sick and damaging their hearing.

Crews suffered nausea, swollen joints and tinnitus from the din and vibrations inside the Ajax armoured vehicles.

Let's be clear, this is an article in the worst newspaper known to man, referencing a Twitter account that has no platform knowledge.

[SW1]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15123499/ ... e-hearing/

NEW tanks which cost the Army £5.5billion were grounded after making troops sick and damaging their hearing.

Crews suffered nausea, swollen joints and tinnitus from the din and vibrations inside the Ajax armoured vehicles.

Let's be clear, this is an article in the worst newspaper known to man, referencing a Twitter account that has no platform knowledge.

So it isn’t true any of it?

[RunningStrong]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15123499/ ... e-hearing/

NEW tanks which cost the Army £5.5billion were grounded after making troops sick and damaging their hearing.

Crews suffered nausea, swollen joints and tinnitus from the din and vibrations inside the Ajax armoured vehicles.

Let's be clear, this is an article in the worst newspaper known to man, referencing a Twitter account that has no platform knowledge.

So it isn’t true any of it?

Some of it isn't true and some of it is a half-story by a crap newspaper based on an ill-informed twitter account.

[RunningStrong]

Breaking news, the disgusting red-top have revealed their source by accidentally including their photo in the news story. Oooops.

[whitelancer]

Whether or not the specific allegations are correct or not their is certainly a problem or problems with Ajax, the MOD needs to get a grip and get things sorted. As much as I dislike Ajax, if the program has to be cancelled it will be a serious blow to the Army. Not only a huge lose of money but the need to again revise the Armies structure, perhaps even forcing a reversal of the decision to bin Warrior, (assuming that program wasn't also experiencing major problems).

Incidentally when Challenger was first introduced noise was also a major problem. Unlike Chieftain it didn't have a silencer for the main engine, so it was considerable louder, consequently they introduced new crewman helmets, and started doing hearing tests. On the Chieftain it was the GUE that was unnecessarily noisy. In my opinion the Army has paid too little attention to reducing vehicle and more generally equipment noise, especially generators, (a pet hate). Their are very good tactical and health reasons for doing so.

[Lord Jim]

Excess noise is secondary to the issues that seem to be affecting the suspension. That falls dead centre in GD's area of responsibility and they cannot dodge this. If the suspension is not doing its job then this affect the rest of the vehicle and those who have to operate it. I do wonder though if they have tried Rubber Tracks. I have seen pictures of an ASCOD fitted with them and these have been shown to reduce both noise and vibration.

So the current score therefore, is two nil regarding the rebuilding of our AFV production capability with both LM with Warrior and GD with Ajax. Let us hope that Rheinmetall do a better job with Boxer and the Challenger rebuild and upgrade programmes.

[Andy-M]

Don't rubber tracks have a weight limit though, the troop carrier version of ASCOD would be within it, but not Ajax.

[RunningStrong]

Excess noise is secondary to the issues that seem to be affecting the suspension. That falls dead centre in GD's area of responsibility and they cannot dodge this. .

There is not a tracked platform or weapon system in the British military that doesn't require hearing protection because of the noise levels.

So by the standards set by health and safety, which MOD no longer have crown immunity from, users must wear hearing protection. Who usually provides hearing protection?

[ArmChairCivvy]

start investigating fitting the Ajax Turret, assuming that now works, onto the Boxer

an improved version of my long-running (5 yrs?) story of Warrior turrets onto Boxers

What’s the transition from the now to end result

It’s almost a nimrod mr4 catch 22.

That also was Act 2, the AEW debacle was so long ago that most have forgotten about it - with inflation correction applied, it was MAJOR though

[SW1]

[Ron5]

I tip my hat to RunningStrong who is so valiantly fighting his corner. I do hope he's proven right. But I fear he won't be.

[Tempest414]

There was a officer who was poo pooed ignored his poo poo , poo pooed it and it turned out the company had poo pooed other officers who poo pooed there poo poos in the end the whole program was disbanded down to poo poo

[Lord Jim]

Didn't the Warrior originally come with noise cancelling headsets for the dismounts in the back?

[SD67]

I’m not sure where or how this goes from here without real pain. If it goes what about the workforce making or supposedly making them and the soldiers waiting for them? If it doesn’t can it be fixed in what time frames and at what cost to who.

If the plug pulled is it Boxer and challenger along the lines of the french going fwd but we need to buy more of them and does it alter the fundamental shape of 3 div announced barely a month ago.

What’s the transition from the now to end result

It’s almost a nimrod mr4 catch 22.

Yep, Land-Nimrod. GDLS has never built a vehicle in this class in Europe. They're standing up a supply chain and manufacturing facility from scratch. An empty shed in Wales that used to build forklifts. A workforce that has never built a military vehicle before. What could possibly go wrong.

And even if it could somehow be made to work, it's still an orphan product. There's no export interest. Cancel it now and sue the pants off them. For a true CVRT replacement we could buy c200 Jaguar from the French for 1 million each. Job done.

[bobp]

Yet another case of the MoD wasting billions on equipment that isn't fit for purpose - they should be relieved of their procurement responsibilities once and for all as it seems that they also are not fit for purpose.

[Rentaghost]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the utility of this vehicle is in the systems it carries, right? The optics, and other sensors but most importantly in the digital architecture used to process and transmit data.

That's it's USP, right? As a networked sensor node, rapidly collating and relaying hitherto unseen quantities of data to higher HQs who can then decide on which "effector" (or big boom thing, to me and you) to launch at the threat.

That all feels like something that could be ported into a Boxer module alongside the Ajax turret.

[ArmChairCivvy]

For a true CVRT replacement we could buy c200 Jaguar from the French for 1 million each.

Saladin, you meant , surely?

feels like something that could be ported into a Boxer

If you can choose an armoured platform that most closely resembles a two-storey building, well, Boxer is it

[Rentaghost]

For a true CVRT replacement we could buy c200 Jaguar from the French for 1 million each.

Saladin, you meant , surely?

feels like something that could be ported into a Boxer

If you can choose an armoured platform that most closely resembles a two-storey building, well, Boxer is it

I get that Boxer is big, but it's only marginally taller than Ajax. To what degree is a low profile actually useful nowadays for recon against a peer opponent anyway? Modern thermo-optical sensors probably reduce the advantage, so actually the spiral is towards first detection at range, and the time from detect to action, right?

[Tempest414]

And even if it could somehow be made to work, it's still an orphan product.

We will have to wait and see if the Ajax based design wins the US light tank comp

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Yep, Land-Nimrod. GDLS has never built a vehicle in this class in Europe. They're standing up a supply chain and manufacturing facility from scratch. An empty shed in Wales that used to build forklifts. A workforce that has never built a military vehicle before. What could possibly go wrong.

And even if it could somehow be made to work, it's still an orphan product. There's no export interest. Cancel it now and sue the pants off them. For a true CVRT replacement we could buy c200 Jaguar from the French for 1 million each. Job done.

That’s massively oversimplifying things. We can’t just lay the whole thing at GDLS’ door.

The truth is far more complicated. Even if all the above were true, then what about commercial risk evaluation and de-risking from the MoD’s side? What about the years of political interference and indecision (cancellation of Tracer, FRES to pursue Afghan adventures etc.), the decades of nigh criminal underinvestment and budgetary instability, in both the Armed Forces (particularly the Army) and defence industry (particularly our AFV industry), the gold plating and last minute design alterations that were the result of such budgetary inadequacies. All of these things and more contributed just as much to the situation we now found ourselves in as any failings from the contractor’s side.

It’s looking to have been one long running farce, over 3 decades in the making.