Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[Tempest414]

for me the navy really needs to show what can be done with what we have and carry out a show of force with a British battle group sailing once around the UK with the group to be made up of

1 x Carrier
1 x LPD
2 x Bay class
3 x Type 45
4 x type 23
1 x Tide
Fort Victoria
2 x Point class

Once the pictures hit the papers it would make it harder to cut them

[Poiuytrewq]

....for me the navy really needs to show what can be done

The Treasury would never allow it

[Lord Jim]

The CSG deployment next year will be to prove we can do it, but probably won't be repeated. Future deployments out there will probably not be an annual event and will be undertaken by everything form a Survey vessel to nothing larger than an Escort.

With the reorganisation of the RM, a new priority will be to build two or three LSS to enable the LSGs to stand up, probably at the expense of the LPDs which will go into extended readiness. Whether they use the Bays for this of a cheap and cheerful conversion of a civilian vessels has yet to be determined. Whatever happens our amphibious force is going to see some major changes.

[Scimitar54]

If they are not used for the purposes that they were acquired for, then there really is no point in their inclusion in the order of battle!

[SW1]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -radar/amp

[Ron5]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -radar/amp

Link didn't work for me.

[SW1]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -radar/amp

Link didn't work for me.

Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbs

https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/

[Repulse]

It’s been taken down, but if you search “Express SBS” it has a reference to the broken link.

[Ron5]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -radar/amp

Link didn't work for me.

Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbs

https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/

Surprised no UK equivalent.

[bobp]

Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbs

I read the article it said they ordered six of them. Seems to have been removed now.

[SW1]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... -radar/amp

Link didn't work for me.

Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbs

https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/

Surprised no UK equivalent.

There’s a few small boat builders in the UK how they all stack up no idea. Like this one

https://www.berthon.co.uk/marine-servic ... rol-craft/

Nothing to stop them taking the basic design and building in the UK with the design/integration of uk specific options done here I suppose. Putting 2 and 2 together and probably getting 6 something for appledore to build.

[Jensy]

Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbs

I read the article it said they ordered six of them. Seems to have been removed now.

Most likely a press embargo was placed upon it till tomorrow morning or a later date.

It never seems to matter how large and blindingly obvious the embargo notice, journalists and features editors have a tendency to ignore all instructions on press releases...

[ArmChairCivvy]

And while the six https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/ have no SF tasking, they can two-time in the force protection role (for which nothing was procured; though there was a need for something bigger than what the RM currently have).

[Repulse]

[jedibeeftrix]

Looking forward to hearing about this glorious new vision... Hopefully before the politics of the ISR renders the RM to a brace of naval infantry 'commandos' based out of catterick.

[ArmChairCivvy]

naval infantry 'commandos'

Studying that nomenclature further:
- naval infantry is for defending coastal (fixed) fortifications, and
- commandos are for offensive operations

So, is a brace divisible into something (that still carries a name)?

[Max Jones]

for me the navy really needs to show what can be done with what we have and carry out a show of force with a British battle group sailing once around the UK with the group to be made up of

1 x Carrier
1 x LPD
2 x Bay class
3 x Type 45
4 x type 23
1 x Tide
Fort Victoria
2 x Point class

Once the pictures hit the papers it would make it harder to cut them

That's essentially what we are going to have deployed in a couple weeks when we have a CSG with QE + five escorts (2 T45, 2 T23, 1 SSN) and the two auxiliaries in GroupEx; small littoral group with 1 LPD, Bay and T45 in the Mediterranean; and at least one T23 and Bay-class in Operation Kipion.

If we could get all of that together in one place it would be an amazing photo but I think it has been demonstrated that level of force is available.

[jedibeeftrix]

naval infantry 'commandos'

Studying that nomenclature further:
- naval infantry is for defending coastal (fixed) fortifications, and
- commandos are for offensive operations

So, is a brace divisible into something (that still carries a name)?

i wouldn't get too hung up on the nomenclature, i used 'naval infantry' to underline a royal marine future that is as a specialist course tacked onto the end of basic infantry training.

plural brace : two of a kind : pair several brace of quail - shrinking from 3+3 battalion sized formations down to 2 LI battalions

i.e. the Royal Marines shrinking from:
a) ~6000 specialist offensive Light Infantry and the full panoply of support for amphibious operations
to:
b) 2x 600 Light Infantry with zero support for amphibious operations - divided up into penny packets to provide shipborne support

[ArmChairCivvy]

from 3+3 battalion sized formations down to 2 LI battalions

Only two of the 'Commandos' have their heavy weapons; the rest of the force has already been assigned to 'other type of work'. Quite a plethora it is, the list of types of duties, so perhaps specialisation in not such a bad thing.

[jedibeeftrix]

sure, no doubt.

but I think you're missing the point i'm making where i suggest the consequence of failing to sell this new role will see the Royal Marines shrink from a complement of over 6000 in all roles to something closer to to 1200 in a commando (read: light infantry) role.

there will be a point where the role is so reduced and the headcount so shrunk, that maintaining a separate training pipeline to create marine commandoes does not make sense...

... and the logical response will be to add a 'Commando' conversion course on to Catterick, which will feed what will in reality be naval infantry with a green beret.

[Tempest414]

For me I would love to see this group join up with say Juan Carlos 1 with its Harriers and 500 Marines plus a French and Italian FEMM

[ArmChairCivvy]

the consequence of failing to sell this new role will see the Royal Marines shrink from a complement of over 6000 in all roles to something

That is a clear risk.

Then again

Admiral Tony Radakin became the First Sea Lord in June 2019 and was quick to put the RM (transformation) as N:o 3 in his 5 top priorities. And the whole idea dovetails with the next priority, which I have tagged (only the header for it) to the end of the quote:

"Fifth-generation commandos

Radakin’s third priority for the Royal Navy lies in fully embracing fifth-generation technology. “We have fifth-generation aircraft carriers. We have fifth-generation aircraft operating from those aircraft carriers and it makes sense to have fifth-generation commando warriors,” he said.


The Royal Marines Commandos have long been, as he puts it, “the door-openers” for the British Armed Forces.


The Royal Marines execute a range of missions from paving the way for heavier forces by striking adversaries’ heavier weaponry to humanitarian roles assisting in disaster relief. The commando force is highly versatile and Radakin wants to sustain this as the UK’s air and sea power makes strides with new technology.


“We will build on the amazing cachet and specialness of our Royal Marine Commandos, blending them with technology to have fifth-generation commando warriors,” he said.


However, this does not mean we will soon sea commandos embarking on ekranoplans and deploying with laser weapons, as reported by Naval Technology. This push will more likely see an emphasis on networked capabilities, giving the Royal Marines advanced communications and information accessing capabilities as part of the UK Armed Forces’ plans for increased survivability and lethality through the use of data."

Forward basing and increased reach then followed, as the 4th priority.

[jedibeeftrix]

that is - as i'm sure you'll agree - marketing blurb.

which tells us nothing about the fate of what is currently a 6000 strong institution.

i've heard on twitter that one should not look to deeply at the Rusi paper when trying to divine the future role of the RM... good, but what then is that role? how will it fight? with what will it fight? will they still be 'door-openers'?

the good admiral doesn't shed any light here...

[Tempest414]

So the RN will have 1 x LPD , 1 x LSD , 1 x T-45 and a B2 River in the Med for the next few months not a bad effort at all

[Repulse]

So the RN will have 1 x LPD , 1 x LSD , 1 x T-45 and a B2 River in the Med for the next few months not a bad effort at all

Plus an Echo class.