Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
for me the navy really needs to show what can be done with what we have and carry out a show of force with a British battle group sailing once around the UK with the group to be made up of
1 x Carrier
1 x LPD
2 x Bay class
3 x Type 45
4 x type 23
1 x Tide
Fort Victoria
2 x Point class
Once the pictures hit the papers it would make it harder to cut them
1 x Carrier
1 x LPD
2 x Bay class
3 x Type 45
4 x type 23
1 x Tide
Fort Victoria
2 x Point class
Once the pictures hit the papers it would make it harder to cut them
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
The Treasury would never allow itTempest414 wrote:....for me the navy really needs to show what can be done
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
The CSG deployment next year will be to prove we can do it, but probably won't be repeated. Future deployments out there will probably not be an annual event and will be undertaken by everything form a Survey vessel to nothing larger than an Escort.
With the reorganisation of the RM, a new priority will be to build two or three LSS to enable the LSGs to stand up, probably at the expense of the LPDs which will go into extended readiness. Whether they use the Bays for this of a cheap and cheerful conversion of a civilian vessels has yet to be determined. Whatever happens our amphibious force is going to see some major changes.
With the reorganisation of the RM, a new priority will be to build two or three LSS to enable the LSGs to stand up, probably at the expense of the LPDs which will go into extended readiness. Whether they use the Bays for this of a cheap and cheerful conversion of a civilian vessels has yet to be determined. Whatever happens our amphibious force is going to see some major changes.
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
If they are not used for the purposes that they were acquired for, then there really is no point in their inclusion in the order of battle!
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbsRon5 wrote:Link didn't work for me.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
It’s been taken down, but if you search “Express SBS” it has a reference to the broken link.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
Surprised no UK equivalent.SW1 wrote:Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbsRon5 wrote:Link didn't work for me.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
I read the article it said they ordered six of them. Seems to have been removed now.SW1 wrote:Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbs
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
There’s a few small boat builders in the UK how they all stack up no idea. Like this oneRon5 wrote:Surprised no UK equivalent.SW1 wrote:Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbsRon5 wrote:Link didn't work for me.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/
https://www.berthon.co.uk/marine-servic ... rol-craft/
Nothing to stop them taking the basic design and building in the UK with the design/integration of uk specific options done here I suppose. Putting 2 and 2 together and probably getting 6 something for appledore to build.
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
Most likely a press embargo was placed upon it till tomorrow morning or a later date.bobp wrote:I read the article it said they ordered six of them. Seems to have been removed now.SW1 wrote:Odd the story seems to have disappeared! It was about buying these for the sbs
It never seems to matter how large and blindingly obvious the embargo notice, journalists and features editors have a tendency to ignore all instructions on press releases...
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
And while the six https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... terceptor/ have no SF tasking, they can two-time in the force protection role (for which nothing was procured; though there was a need for something bigger than what the RM currently have).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
Looking forward to hearing about this glorious new vision... Hopefully before the politics of the ISR renders the RM to a brace of naval infantry 'commandos' based out of catterick.
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
Studying that nomenclature further:jedibeeftrix wrote: naval infantry 'commandos'
- naval infantry is for defending coastal (fixed) fortifications, and
- commandos are for offensive operations
So, is a brace divisible into something (that still carries a name)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
That's essentially what we are going to have deployed in a couple weeks when we have a CSG with QE + five escorts (2 T45, 2 T23, 1 SSN) and the two auxiliaries in GroupEx; small littoral group with 1 LPD, Bay and T45 in the Mediterranean; and at least one T23 and Bay-class in Operation Kipion.Tempest414 wrote:for me the navy really needs to show what can be done with what we have and carry out a show of force with a British battle group sailing once around the UK with the group to be made up of
1 x Carrier
1 x LPD
2 x Bay class
3 x Type 45
4 x type 23
1 x Tide
Fort Victoria
2 x Point class
Once the pictures hit the papers it would make it harder to cut them
If we could get all of that together in one place it would be an amazing photo but I think it has been demonstrated that level of force is available.
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
i wouldn't get too hung up on the nomenclature, i used 'naval infantry' to underline a royal marine future that is as a specialist course tacked onto the end of basic infantry training.ArmChairCivvy wrote:Studying that nomenclature further:jedibeeftrix wrote: naval infantry 'commandos'
- naval infantry is for defending coastal (fixed) fortifications, and
- commandos are for offensive operations
So, is a brace divisible into something (that still carries a name)?
plural brace : two of a kind : pair several brace of quail - shrinking from 3+3 battalion sized formations down to 2 LI battalions
i.e. the Royal Marines shrinking from:
a) ~6000 specialist offensive Light Infantry and the full panoply of support for amphibious operations
to:
b) 2x 600 Light Infantry with zero support for amphibious operations - divided up into penny packets to provide shipborne support
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
Only two of the 'Commandos' have their heavy weapons; the rest of the force has already been assigned to 'other type of work'. Quite a plethora it is, the list of types of duties, so perhaps specialisation in not such a bad thing.jedibeeftrix wrote:from 3+3 battalion sized formations down to 2 LI battalions
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
sure, no doubt.
but I think you're missing the point i'm making where i suggest the consequence of failing to sell this new role will see the Royal Marines shrink from a complement of over 6000 in all roles to something closer to to 1200 in a commando (read: light infantry) role.
there will be a point where the role is so reduced and the headcount so shrunk, that maintaining a separate training pipeline to create marine commandoes does not make sense...
... and the logical response will be to add a 'Commando' conversion course on to Catterick, which will feed what will in reality be naval infantry with a green beret.
but I think you're missing the point i'm making where i suggest the consequence of failing to sell this new role will see the Royal Marines shrink from a complement of over 6000 in all roles to something closer to to 1200 in a commando (read: light infantry) role.
there will be a point where the role is so reduced and the headcount so shrunk, that maintaining a separate training pipeline to create marine commandoes does not make sense...
... and the logical response will be to add a 'Commando' conversion course on to Catterick, which will feed what will in reality be naval infantry with a green beret.
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
For me I would love to see this group join up with say Juan Carlos 1 with its Harriers and 500 Marines plus a French and Italian FEMMRepulse wrote:
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
That is a clear risk.jedibeeftrix wrote: the consequence of failing to sell this new role will see the Royal Marines shrink from a complement of over 6000 in all roles to something
Then again
Admiral Tony Radakin became the First Sea Lord in June 2019 and was quick to put the RM (transformation) as N:o 3 in his 5 top priorities. And the whole idea dovetails with the next priority, which I have tagged (only the header for it) to the end of the quote:
"Fifth-generation commandos
Radakin’s third priority for the Royal Navy lies in fully embracing fifth-generation technology. “We have fifth-generation aircraft carriers. We have fifth-generation aircraft operating from those aircraft carriers and it makes sense to have fifth-generation commando warriors,” he said.
The Royal Marines Commandos have long been, as he puts it, “the door-openers” for the British Armed Forces.
The Royal Marines execute a range of missions from paving the way for heavier forces by striking adversaries’ heavier weaponry to humanitarian roles assisting in disaster relief. The commando force is highly versatile and Radakin wants to sustain this as the UK’s air and sea power makes strides with new technology.
“We will build on the amazing cachet and specialness of our Royal Marine Commandos, blending them with technology to have fifth-generation commando warriors,” he said.
However, this does not mean we will soon sea commandos embarking on ekranoplans and deploying with laser weapons, as reported by Naval Technology. This push will more likely see an emphasis on networked capabilities, giving the Royal Marines advanced communications and information accessing capabilities as part of the UK Armed Forces’ plans for increased survivability and lethality through the use of data."
Forward basing and increased reach then followed, as the 4th priority.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
that is - as i'm sure you'll agree - marketing blurb.
which tells us nothing about the fate of what is currently a 6000 strong institution.
i've heard on twitter that one should not look to deeply at the Rusi paper when trying to divine the future role of the RM... good, but what then is that role? how will it fight? with what will it fight? will they still be 'door-openers'?
the good admiral doesn't shed any light here...
which tells us nothing about the fate of what is currently a 6000 strong institution.
i've heard on twitter that one should not look to deeply at the Rusi paper when trying to divine the future role of the RM... good, but what then is that role? how will it fight? with what will it fight? will they still be 'door-openers'?
the good admiral doesn't shed any light here...
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
So the RN will have 1 x LPD , 1 x LSD , 1 x T-45 and a B2 River in the Med for the next few months not a bad effort at all
Re: Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion
Plus an Echo class.Tempest414 wrote:So the RN will have 1 x LPD , 1 x LSD , 1 x T-45 and a B2 River in the Med for the next few months not a bad effort at all
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston