Yeah, the West does have a democracy, but they use all these things as well. Or you think that for average Chinese will be any easier when democratic West blocks Malacca Strait and Chinese oil supply? Or about debt, who prevented UK to give better loans than China?Repulse wrote:No problem with the food, it’s the lack of democracy, human rights and slavery through debt / access to raw materials / goods that I have a problem with.abc123 wrote:What, you shall all have to use sticks and eat rice instead of fish and chips?
Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
For me I still think it is time to move away from the SNMG's to SNLRG's at this time Europe hasRepulse wrote:Sort of - my reading is that “Russia is an immediate threat” and “China is quickly becoming one”. How quickly is the question - some think 10 years others now think 6 or less.
3 x Big deck carriers
1 x Light carrier
5 x LHD's
8 x LPD's
5 x LST
3 x LSD's
this = 21 Amphib's and 4 Carriers which should allow each ship to deploy as part of NATO 4 months of a year if split into groups of 3 and be supported by a carrier group
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I think its probably the complete opp to that. The risk of serious destabilisation to the uk and its way of life is largely based on what happens in the region in which we live. Shutting down the north seas or Atlantic air or sea lanes would cause exponentially more damage to the uk than if that happened in South China Sea.Repulse wrote:Sort of - my reading is that “Russia is an immediate threat” and “China is quickly becoming one”. How quickly is the question - some think 10 years others now think 6 or less.SW1 wrote:Did the integrated review not make a specific difference between how we view Russia and China?
My view is that for the UK, Russia will be a constant annoyance and will use opportunities in global events to maximise its influence and control of neighbouring states. China however is the bigger threat to the UK and it’s way of life.1.4. Russia continues to pose the greatest nuclear, conventional military and sub-threshold threat to European security. Modernisation of the Russian armed forces, the ability to integrate whole of state activity and a greater appetite for risk, makes Russia both a capable and unpredictable actor.
1.5. The rising power of China is by far the most significant geopolitical factor in the world today. China poses a complex, systemic challenge. As the Integrated Review makes clear, we need to be prepared to push back to protect our values and global interests, while maintaining our ability to cooperate in tackling global challenges such as climate change and the mutual benefits of our economic relationship.
The significant impact of China’s military modernisation (which is proceeding faster than any other nation) and growing international assertiveness within the Indo-Pacific region will pose an increasing challenge.
….
2.3. Growing maritime capabilities will enable the projection of power further afield and to conduct operations from increased range.
• The growth of China’s navy, already the largest in the world, is outpacing all competitors. China is set to have as many as five aircraft carriers by 2030 as well as up to four light helicopter carriers, and are supported by the growing fleet of destroyers.
• Russia is investing in and developing significant underwater capabilities, including deep-sea capabilities which can threaten undersea cables, as well as a torpedo capable of delivering a nuclear payload to coastal targets.
2.4. The development of long-range precision strike capabilities, combined with increasingly capable early warning radar and integrated air defence systems, will enable states to contest and even dominate airspace in many areas where the UK will need to operate.
• China is developing a full spectrum of air capabilities including fourth and fifth generation fighters, multiple Intelligence Surveillance Targeting Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) aircraft, the Y-20 heavy transport aircraft, armed stealth Uncrewed Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) and a capable Integrated Air Defence System with the world’s most modern surface to air missiles.
• Russia has the capability to conduct precision strikes at range and to deny freedom of action to the UK and our allies through a highly capable integrated air defence system. Russia can therefore present a significant threat to the UK’s ability to support our forces and protect our interests in Europe, the eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East.
Both are gaining influence in countries thru political and financial activity that is destabilising democratise that require suppose and push back. China is more military flexing it muscle in its own back yard which we aren’t in as Russian is doing here.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Ron5 wrote:Not a student of naval history then?Tinman wrote:Dear me, in what scenario Can you see any watship fighting alone?Ron5 wrote:So the Type 31 "escort" needs an escort?Tinman wrote:In what scenario would a T31 go up against SSN/K alone?Lord Jim wrote:AS it stands it has no sonar either hull mounted or as a tail therefore cannot detect underwater targets. The Wildcat can only drop ASW Torpedoes or Depth Charges after being queued by off board systems, usually its mothership. Yes it may get the barest of ASW capability in say littoral areas with unmanned systems but it is limited in the size of these it can carry as it does really have a mission bay.Tinman wrote:Want to back that up?
AS far as fleet upgrades are concerned, I am beginning to think the Interim AShM is becoming more important. Showing you are equipped to launch such a weapon in retaliation to being fired upon has a deterrence factor. At present, besides the Wildcat the RN's escort fleet has little offensive capability, out gunned by many nations at a lower tier. WE can defend ourselves but have difficulty shooting back/
Last 30 years? Any examples?
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I suspect @RichardIC could give you a suggestion.donald_of_tokyo wrote:Get the £200m to £300m by sacrificing what?
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Babcock's giving profits on a possible Greek contract to the MoD? Seems a tad unlikely.tomuk wrote:Well maybe Babcock can pull of the deal with Greece including a couple of T23, reduces immediate RN expenditure and possible economies of scale on design build T31.Poiuytrewq wrote:Good question.donald_of_tokyo wrote:Get the £200m to £300m by sacrificing what?
The money required amounts to around £40m to £50m per annum between 2023 and 2028. That is hardly a deal breaker but it's still a significant amount.
Whilst I would ideally like the Treasury to shake the magic money tree again realistically the most reasonable way to bridge the gap in finance and manpower is to start to retire some of the T23's early.
Not ideal but this really is the time to sort the chronic escort shortage. It can be done and it should be done.
By the way, the Greek Type 31's would be built in Greece as I understand it.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
History started precisely 30 years ago? Dear me, that's pretty weak.Tinman wrote:Ron5 wrote:Not a student of naval history then?Tinman wrote:Dear me, in what scenario Can you see any watship fighting alone?Ron5 wrote:So the Type 31 "escort" needs an escort?Tinman wrote:In what scenario would a T31 go up against SSN/K alone?Lord Jim wrote:AS it stands it has no sonar either hull mounted or as a tail therefore cannot detect underwater targets. The Wildcat can only drop ASW Torpedoes or Depth Charges after being queued by off board systems, usually its mothership. Yes it may get the barest of ASW capability in say littoral areas with unmanned systems but it is limited in the size of these it can carry as it does really have a mission bay.Tinman wrote:Want to back that up?
AS far as fleet upgrades are concerned, I am beginning to think the Interim AShM is becoming more important. Showing you are equipped to launch such a weapon in retaliation to being fired upon has a deterrence factor. At present, besides the Wildcat the RN's escort fleet has little offensive capability, out gunned by many nations at a lower tier. WE can defend ourselves but have difficulty shooting back/
Last 30 years? Any examples?
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Maybe any savings from retiring another two T-23 early and passing them to the Greek Navy on loan as interim escorts, could be used to improve the T-31s, even is by only installing additional Sea Ceptor.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
This number says, up-arming River B2 or sending T31 will not change the game significantly. In that case, sending River B2 "as is" does have some effect. Up-arming them has another effect, and T31 yet another effect. There are no such thing as "sending River B2 as is" is meaningless. They just differ.Tempest414 wrote:the South Seas fleet alone has 29 frigates and corvettes and it only needs one of them to be overly aggressive and damage one of the 2 OPV's and it is out of the game
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
REF up arming T31 - For my two cents worth
As Donald says up arm the first 3 or may be 4 if possible, 24 sea ceptor and basic sonar, the last 1 or 2, delete CAMM for now
But when the T32 budget is availiable divert some funds to the CAMM - less T31 or sell them of when the T32 come on stream if they are going to be better for GP tasks....
As Donald says up arm the first 3 or may be 4 if possible, 24 sea ceptor and basic sonar, the last 1 or 2, delete CAMM for now
But when the T32 budget is availiable divert some funds to the CAMM - less T31 or sell them of when the T32 come on stream if they are going to be better for GP tasks....
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Until the T-31s hot the water and complete their first operational cruises we will not see how effective they are or are not. As for the future the route I support would be the that the T-32 be a more "Spiky" evolution of the T-31 and that any contract for the former would also include a clause for upgrading the existing T-31 to the same standard, i.e. true light Frigates and creating a class of ten possibly fitted out as follows;
1x Full capability BAE 57mm
1x Full capability BAE 40mm
1x Phalanx
24x Sea Ceptor
4-8x AShM
Artisan Radar
Hull mounted Sonar
Provision of VDS, but only four to six sets shared between the ten vessels.
Ability to carry either a Merlin or a combination of Wildcat and Rotary UAV
The above it obviously the most comprehensive load out, but I would like the end result to incorporate at least the majority of the suggestions.
1x Full capability BAE 57mm
1x Full capability BAE 40mm
1x Phalanx
24x Sea Ceptor
4-8x AShM
Artisan Radar
Hull mounted Sonar
Provision of VDS, but only four to six sets shared between the ten vessels.
Ability to carry either a Merlin or a combination of Wildcat and Rotary UAV
The above it obviously the most comprehensive load out, but I would like the end result to incorporate at least the majority of the suggestions.
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
As I have said in the past for me Type 32 should be geared to LRG support and as so should haveLord Jim wrote:Until the T-31s hot the water and complete their first operational cruises we will not see how effective they are or are not. As for the future the route I support would be the that the T-32 be a more "Spiky" evolution of the T-31 and that any contract for the former would also include a clause for upgrading the existing T-31 to the same standard, i.e. true light Frigates and creating a class of ten possibly fitted out as follows;
1x Full capability BAE 57mm
1x Full capability BAE 40mm
1x Phalanx
24x Sea Ceptor
4-8x AShM
Artisan Radar
Hull mounted Sonar
Provision of VDS, but only four to six sets shared between the ten vessels.
Ability to carry either a Merlin or a combination of Wildcat and Rotary UAV
The above it obviously the most comprehensive load out, but I would like the end result to incorporate at least the majority of the suggestions.
The same radar & CMS as type 31
A good HMS
6 x Containerized VDS for the 10 Type 31/32 & River class
1 x Full fat 127mm
2 x full fat 40mm
2 x Manuel 20mm + 4 x Miniguns
24 to 30 CAMM
8 x SSGW
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Two nations post ww2 have sunk a ship from the subsurface, I can't recall any watship fighting in it's own, against a never peer or peer, can you?Ron5 wrote:History started precisely 30 years ago? Dear me, that's pretty weak.Tinman wrote:Ron5 wrote:Not a student of naval history then?Tinman wrote:Dear me, in what scenario Can you see any watship fighting alone?Ron5 wrote:So the Type 31 "escort" needs an escort?Tinman wrote:In what scenario would a T31 go up against SSN/K alone?Lord Jim wrote:AS it stands it has no sonar either hull mounted or as a tail therefore cannot detect underwater targets. The Wildcat can only drop ASW Torpedoes or Depth Charges after being queued by off board systems, usually its mothership. Yes it may get the barest of ASW capability in say littoral areas with unmanned systems but it is limited in the size of these it can carry as it does really have a mission bay.Tinman wrote:Want to back that up?
AS far as fleet upgrades are concerned, I am beginning to think the Interim AShM is becoming more important. Showing you are equipped to launch such a weapon in retaliation to being fired upon has a deterrence factor. At present, besides the Wildcat the RN's escort fleet has little offensive capability, out gunned by many nations at a lower tier. WE can defend ourselves but have difficulty shooting back/
Last 30 years? Any examples?
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I agree each has its place however it has been my belief for some time that the only reason the B2's have a 30mm mount is it is / was the biggest gun the RN had in service apart from the 114mm mk-8 . It has always been the intention the RN would use the B2's to cover overseas tasks and this is just my view but I feel they should have been fitted with a 57mm plus 2 x 20mm and 2 x Minigun's as I feel this is the lowest credible fit for anti air/ surface threats for RN Patrol ships outside UK watersdonald_of_tokyo wrote:This number says, up-arming River B2 or sending T31 will not change the game significantly. In that case, sending River B2 "as is" does have some effect. Up-arming them has another effect, and T31 yet another effect. There are no such thing as "sending River B2 as is" is meaningless. They just differ.Tempest414 wrote:the South Seas fleet alone has 29 frigates and corvettes and it only needs one of them to be overly aggressive and damage one of the 2 OPV's and it is out of the game
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
donald_of_tokyo wrote:This number says, up-arming River B2 or sending T31 will not change the game significantly. In that case, sending River B2 "as is" does have some effect. Up-arming them has another effect, and T31 yet another effect. There are no such thing as "sending River B2 as is" is meaningless. They just differ.Tempest414 wrote:the South Seas fleet alone has 29 frigates and corvettes and it only needs one of them to be overly aggressive and damage one of the 2 OPV's and it is out of the game
Yeah, in quantity of laughing it will produce in Beijing. It's inversely proportional to quantity and quality of weapons on some RN ship sent there.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
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- Senior Member
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- Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
But, even if you send a T45 destroyer, with Chinese ballistic anti-ship missile, and T45's complete lack of ABM capability, I guess, they will laugh with highest quantity in case of T45. River B2 shall be much more better, I think, as it can be at sea as long as 300 days a year (or even longer), which will be more annoying than only short visit of T45?abc123 wrote:Yeah, in quantity of laughing it will produce in Beijing. It's inversely proportional to quantity and quality of weapons on some RN ship sent there.donald_of_tokyo wrote:This number says, up-arming River B2 or sending T31 will not change the game significantly. In that case, sending River B2 "as is" does have some effect. Up-arming them has another effect, and T31 yet another effect. There are no such thing as "sending River B2 as is" is meaningless. They just differ.Tempest414 wrote:the South Seas fleet alone has 29 frigates and corvettes and it only needs one of them to be overly aggressive and damage one of the 2 OPV's and it is out of the game
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
The thing that makes me laugh is the number of people who seem to seriously think that the RB2s will be "confronting the PLAN".abc123 wrote:Yeah, in quantity of laughing it will produce in Beijing. It's inversely proportional to quantity and quality of weapons on some RN ship sent there.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
No argument but in which case what is the point of deploying them?Caribbean wrote:The thing that makes me laugh is the number of people who seem to seriously think that the RB2s will be "confronting the PLAN".
With no clear objective apart from aggravating the neighbors I think it's highly likely they will be withdrawn if we get a change of Government.
This is one of the reasons I don't think the RB2's or the T31's are the right fit for forward basing in Singapore. Two multi-role auxiliary vessels with a clear and substantive HADR capability would be easier to justify to whichever political party formed the UK Government of the day.
IMO this stability spread across successive administrations would be much more reassuring to the UK's allies in the region.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Where do I begin? Just to pick one - Piracy? The sea lanes of the region have a certain reputation with regard to that. A lot of that piracy is thought to be carried out by elements of local security forces, so the presence of a "straight arrow" in the region, that can't be bought off, could have a huge impact. Add to that the training element, where the same forces can have contact with people who actually believe in what they are doing, have pride in it and carry their duties out honestly and professionally - the impact on new recruits coming into the system can be immense. It also gives a focus to the honest elements in local armed forces to help them combat the corrupt elements.Poiuytrewq wrote:No argument but in which case what is the point of deploying them?
As for HADR - do you want to commit two large vessels permanently now, or would it be better to deploy a couple of smaller vessels that can assess the situation and request appropriate assistance if something happens. Maybe in future years, once we have built experience in, and knowledge of, the region and built up our relationship with local partners, we will do that, but as an initial commitment, it's a good start. The Caribbean is a known quantity - between the UK, Holland and France, and with islands that we can use as local bases, we can deploy a decent task force to focus on wherever hurricanes hit - the East Indies is not - there are local complications to consider, that we need to be able to navigate on our own, sometime independently of the desires of local politicians.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Rather than thinking that the RB2's will be confronting the PLAN it should be looked at that the PLAN and Coast guard have the numbers and will to seek out and confront the B2's at will. Now this may not happen they could be left alone to empower and embolden local players in the region but if not they are in for a long 5 years.Caribbean wrote:The thing that makes me laugh is the number of people who seem to seriously think that the RB2s will be "confronting the PLAN".
Now what I have said in the last few day about fitting a 57mm & 2 x 20mm is not about the B2's locking horns with Chinese it is about giving our crews a good ability to defend self against when needed when going about there task
The B2's are a good ship that are starting to show some great capability though offboard systems and they have fine up to now on duties like FIGS and AP-N and in the Med but the Indo-Pacific is a different ball game
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
No one (not in their right mind anyway) are suggesting that the RN is deploying a force to confront the PLAN by itself. You seem to be suggesting that unless it can do this (which it cannot) then it is not worth doing anything.abc123 wrote:Yeah, in quantity of laughing it will produce in Beijing. It's inversely proportional to quantity and quality of weapons on some RN ship sent there.
The whole Chinese SCS strategy is to challenge and undermine using low level or indirect means other nation EEZ claims and access to mineral and marine resources. What’s more it is doing the same in the Indian Ocean and into the Pacific also using allied nations reliant on Chinese money. It will avoid doing this in an overt way until it is confident it challenge and beat the USN and it’s allied navies. This is a matter of when not if, given current trends.
Like Russia, the concept of taking the fight close to their shores is a way of containing the issue, and buying time. Given the threat through low level means contributing 2 OPVs and a flexible LRG is exactly what is required IMO.
This of course needs to be backed with an occasional visit to remind China that we are able and willing to wield a big stick. This Cold War will be ongoing for decades.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
As I said a few days ago the UK alone can be shrugged off but with other Commonwealth members it could put together two battle groups as above and it would take a few years to work up such a group so now is the time to startTempest414 wrote:The RN Carrier strike group would be good but only as the centre of a commonwealth battle group made up of
1 x QE carrier
1 x SSN
1 x Canberra class LHD
4 x SSK ( 2 x RAN & 2 x RCN )
2 x Bay class
2 x Type 45's
1 x Hobart class
3 x type 23
4 x ANZAC class ( 3 x RAN & 1 RNZN )
3 x Halifax class
Plus Tanker and solid support ships
for me this is the what we should be pushing for this force could make up task force South with the USN along with Japan and South Korea making up the Centre and North
buy the mid 2030s we would see the 10 frigates above i.e type 23 , ANZAC and Halifax classes replaced with type 26's
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Indeed, it is overtly paying attention to the region, including BOTs, and challenging low level incursions and other illegality which in conjunction with allies will help counter chinese activity.Repulse wrote:The whole Chinese SCS strategy is to challenge and undermine using low level or indirect means other nation EEZ claims and access to mineral and marine resources. What’s more it is doing the same in the Indian Ocean and into the Pacific also using allied nations reliant on Chinese money. It will avoid doing this in an overt way until it is confident it challenge and beat the USN and it’s allied navies. This is a matter of when not if, given current trends.
Like Russia, the concept of taking the fight close to their shores is a way of containing the issue, and buying time. Given the threat through low level means contributing 2 OPVs and a flexible LRG is exactly what is required IMO.
I must also say what a great draft for any YO or rating, esp the OPVs.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I've been to Singapore, they won't be able to afford anything.J. Tattersall wrote:Indeed, it is overtly paying attention to the region, including BOTs, and challenging low level incursions and other illegality which in conjunction with allies will help counter chinese activity.Repulse wrote:The whole Chinese SCS strategy is to challenge and undermine using low level or indirect means other nation EEZ claims and access to mineral and marine resources. What’s more it is doing the same in the Indian Ocean and into the Pacific also using allied nations reliant on Chinese money. It will avoid doing this in an overt way until it is confident it challenge and beat the USN and it’s allied navies. This is a matter of when not if, given current trends.
Like Russia, the concept of taking the fight close to their shores is a way of containing the issue, and buying time. Given the threat through low level means contributing 2 OPVs and a flexible LRG is exactly what is required IMO.
I must also say what a great draft for any YO or rating, esp the OPVs.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Why this fixation by so many that they're going to spend their time in Singapore? The Indo-Pacific region is massive.Ron5 wrote:I've been to Singapore, they won't be able to afford anything.