To be straight I don't think Greece should be looking to buy buy any frigates at all they should be looking for ASW corvettes around the 100 to 110 meter by 14 meter something like a 105 meter Leanderinch wrote:But after all you guys have said about t31 program , choice , numbers, build up ,I think the old looking design is going to find itself up against it trying for sales outside the RN with as said all these better more modern designs coming out there ,hell if I was running a navy I wouldn't pick the A140 as my first rate frigate for a country with maybe a 4-6 frigates in their navy , would you ? Thinking Greece will go for the fremm or French design tbh ,A140 won't get a look in I'm afraid
Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Thinking Greece will go best most potent design / size they can afford to show force or try to counter act as much they can the Turkish navy ships , even in reality it can't but having a few ships as capable as the opposition will probably come into it , Even if as you say they can't really afford it
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I don't know given that they have RAM an A-140 with a 127mm up front with 2 x 21 cell RAM launchers one on B turret and one on top of the Hangar plus two 30mm cannons and 16 strike length VLS would make some ship
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
This being said if they went with a 105m Leander with say a 76mm up front a 21 cell RAM on the hangar 2 x 30mm and 8 cell Mk-41 it would still be some ship
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Have a look at how the Dutch upgraded their Leander variants (can't remember the spelling of the actual name Van Speike or something off the top of my head). The totally reworked its weapon systems with a OTO 76mm, 8x Harpoon, I believe a Goalkeeper and a very good tail to work with its on board Lynx, with dipping sonar and on board ASW Torpedo. They also got a new Radar and other systems. Quite potent little frigates.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Greece will buy the frigates from one of the countries that they owe so much money to. I expect France.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I was thinking the same.Ron5 wrote:Greece will buy the frigates from one of the countries that they owe so much money to. I expect France.
I doubt the French even charge them just add it to the tab - 44 billion goes to 45.
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
So as Italy is putting FREMM forward to Greece are the French putting FTI up against it
Any armour on T26?
An idle curiosity question: do modern RN ships have any significant armour or has it been designed out as a waste of time/money/weight etc against modern weapons?
Reason for asking is that I've been watching some of the many new videos on YT about the US New Jersey battleship (that is now effectively in preservation) and the Iowa class more generally. One of these videos:
goes through a speculation about whether New Jersey would have survived the onslaught that sank the Bismarck. (The answer wasn't definitive but probably no.) Just a flight of fancy of course, but interesting nonetheless. One of the key issues was around battleship armour of the period and there was a comment in passing that eg Rodney's armour might well have survived a Tomahawk strike (and other unnamed cruise missiles). That surprised me a bit, but I guess modern warships rely on anti-missile defences rather than passive protection?
Reason for asking is that I've been watching some of the many new videos on YT about the US New Jersey battleship (that is now effectively in preservation) and the Iowa class more generally. One of these videos:
goes through a speculation about whether New Jersey would have survived the onslaught that sank the Bismarck. (The answer wasn't definitive but probably no.) Just a flight of fancy of course, but interesting nonetheless. One of the key issues was around battleship armour of the period and there was a comment in passing that eg Rodney's armour might well have survived a Tomahawk strike (and other unnamed cruise missiles). That surprised me a bit, but I guess modern warships rely on anti-missile defences rather than passive protection?
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
YupTempest414 wrote:So as Italy is putting FREMM forward to Greece are the French putting FTI up against it
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... enic-navy/
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Rumor has it that the Greek Navy’s top preference is for the Dutch offer, followed by the French and the British… now it all depends on politics…
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I'm amazed the Hellenic Navy is considering 4 FDI's and 2 La Fayette's. A VERY expensive option for the capability required.JohnM wrote:Rumor has it that the Greek Navy’s top preference is for the Dutch offer, followed by the French and the British… now it all depends on politics…
The A140 would give the Greeks all the capability they would need for a much more realistic price IMO.
It's worth remembering that if 'presence' is important the A140 is a much larger vessel than a modestly sized Frigate like an FDI.
Size Matters
Re: Any armour on T26?
No, modern ships do not feature the sort of armour belt found on WW2 cruisers, much less battleships.
While a modern anti-ship missile might have difficulty against a late battleship belt and turret armour (not surprising, none of their intended targets are so well protected) it would quite handily obliterate everything less well protected, such as radar, secondary and anti-air armament, fire control, command and control, communications.
A ship lacking those would generally be considered combat-ineffective, even if it could still float and fire its main guns.
While a modern anti-ship missile might have difficulty against a late battleship belt and turret armour (not surprising, none of their intended targets are so well protected) it would quite handily obliterate everything less well protected, such as radar, secondary and anti-air armament, fire control, command and control, communications.
A ship lacking those would generally be considered combat-ineffective, even if it could still float and fire its main guns.
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Note the 'full interoperability' not just with NATO but also with the MN, as mentionedPoiuytrewq wrote:I'm amazed the Hellenic Navy is considering 4 FDI's and 2 La Fayette's. A VERY expensive option for the capability required.
... should there be a fracas developing the latter is more likely to sail into the area (the reasons have been elaborated on other threads here) than the former (that would 'intermediate' between members)
Also (if selected), going from 4 CIWS guns on the Hydras... to all missile on FDIs
Ways to pay? Reminds me of the 25 yr tobacco counter (barter) deal for the Mirages - a long time ago. Energy was a twin in the whealing and dealing even then ( a nuclear power station)
I wonder which Lafayettes would be 'thrown in' as not all of them were fully modernised?
- whichever, v reminiscent of the Italy/ Indonesia deal (local builds will take time to ramp up, and the gap is filled with ships that on the sending side already have a decommissioning date = allocated replacements)
- nicely takes us back to our own A140s ... well, we need to get them into water first
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Agreed. A very expensive option.Poiuytrewq wrote:I'm amazed the Hellenic Navy is considering 4 FDI's and 2 La Fayette's. A VERY expensive option for the capability required.JohnM wrote:Rumor has it that the Greek Navy’s top preference is for the Dutch offer, followed by the French and the British… now it all depends on politics…
The A140 would give the Greeks all the capability they would need for a much more realistic price IMO.
It's worth remembering that if 'presence' is important the A140 is a much larger vessel than a modestly sized Frigate like an FDI.
Size Matters
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
- Tempest414
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Re: Any armour on T26?
I would agree in the most part however in there last fit with 12 x 5" in AA mode and 4 x Phalanx they would have some defence. Plus it would depend where and what it was doing i.e if it was doing NGFS if it was still floating and can fire its 16" guns I would consider it combat effectivemr.fred wrote:A ship lacking those would generally be considered combat-ineffective, even if it could still float and fire its main guns.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Well if the Greeks were to go with the La Fayette / FTI option then as said before they have the 76mm and RAM in service so asking the French to replace the 100mm with a 76mm and fitting 2 x 21 cell RAM units one behind the main gun and the other on the hangar would give them a nice patrol frigate
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Certainly internal volume matters, especially looking at offboard systems, which everyone seems to be.Poiuytrewq wrote:Size Matters
Size and number of boat bays, size of hangar, size of flight deck, space available for embarked force.
Re: Any armour on T26?
Some, but we were focussing on physical armour rather than point defenceTempest414 wrote:I would agree in the most part however in there last fit with 12 x 5" in AA mode and 4 x Phalanx they would have some defence.
If the rangefinders, radar and plotting computers are smashed then it won’t be at effective at NGFS, plus you’d be mostly working on how to get what’s left of the ship back to port without what’s left of your crew starving to death rather than blindly lobbing shells.Tempest414 wrote:Plus it would depend where and what it was doing i.e if it was doing NGFS if it was still floating and can fire its 16" guns I would consider it combat effective
- The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Any armour on T26?
Merging this topic with the escorts general discussion one.albedo wrote:Notification
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
All true but also having the biggest vessels in the neighborhood counts for something. At least before the shooting starts...RichardIC wrote:Certainly internal volume matters, especially looking at offboard systems, which everyone seems to be.
Size and number of boat bays, size of hangar, size of flight deck, space available for embarked force.
Exactly how the T31's and the RB2's should be utilised.ArmChairCivvy wrote: v reminiscent of the Italy/ Indonesia deal (local builds will take time to ramp up, and the gap is filled with ships that on the sending side already have a decommissioning date = allocated replacements)
After 15yrs they should be decommissioned and sold after undergoing a thorough refit at a British yard to sweeten a larger deal if possible. RN benefits from more modern replacements and UK shipyards keep the orderbooks topped up.
There is absolutely no reason why France and Italy should be walking off with all these contracts.
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
We will be getting there... then there's the Dutch as well that have a v shrewd strategy... didn't they even penetrate the KriegsmarinePoiuytrewq wrote: There is absolutely no reason why France and Italy should be walking off with all these contracts.
ship building (sorry for the old name for the navy, if any German readers are around):
MKS-180: European naval cooperation starts in Germany
https://www.damen.com › magazines › 2021/02 › dame...
2 Feb 2021 — It is a German-Dutch project
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
They all have differing strategies that work for their respective countries. The problem is the lack of a similar coherent strategy for Britain.ArmChairCivvy wrote:Dutch.....France and Italy
Why does BAE not have a design portfolio full of Destroyer, Frigate and OPV designs that export customers can consider when the requirement arises?
Leander was clearly a viable vessel. Why has HMG not ordered three to replace the RB1's? It would be an easy win for UK PLC and RN.
The T31 was a fantastic opportunity to give BAE or Babcock a world beating light or medium Frigate design, suitable for export, that was squandered by going to the lowest International bidder and tarting up a decades old design. No joined-up thinking led to a design full of foreign components and systems even when viable British alternatives existed. A classic example of inexcusable short-termism.
Similar mistakes must not be made with the T32.