Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Ron5]

how many classes of RN FRIGATES have had absolutely no idea what was happening sub surface?

T45 until they changed the not waterproof cables connected to the sonar.?

Destroyer

[tomuk]

I assume you agree that the design of RN ships has been subject to a great deal of uninformed meddling by their political owners over many, many, decades that has wasted a lot of money and lives.

Well that's not unexpected when there are 1,000s of jobs and billions of pounds of tax payers money involved. And dare I say when some well remunerated directorships are available. Personally I'm more concerned about the unaccountable civil service at least the ballot box is available for the politicians.

Destroyer

Sorry I got confused I thought it was an up-armed and up-sensored OPV

[J. Tattersall]

Oh come on nor will a type 26 or type 45 survive from a tire 1 SSG weapon strike

I was referring to a the ability of a T-31 and a B2 River being attacked by low tier opposition what are able to hit the vessel with a combinations of ATGWs, Rockets and Heavy Machine Gun Fire. These only have to knock out or damage certain systems, sensors or arrays to get a "Mission Kill". Under most peacetime ROE small vessels will get well within range before a ship would take action, giving the initiative to the opposition every time. A fully fledged Warship though has enough deterrent effect that it would probably persuade the Swarm to not try their luck, but a T-31 is probably is just weak enough to encourage to try such an action. In wartime, such boat swarms would go looking for easier prey, and let real FACs and larger vessels go after the T-31, from which it will have to hide behind the skirts of it bigger sisters, the T-26 and T-45.

What cobblers. Head in hands.

[Lord Jim]

unaccountable civil service

In future please refer to the Senior Civil Service, some of us actually worked bloody hard within a crap system!!

As for "Cobblers", have a look at how the IRG arm their fast attack boats, and how close they currently get to warships before backing off. If they decided to attack for some idiotic reason they would be little to stop them launching whatever they are carrying from a relatively short range. I am sure the T-31 would respond quickly but it would take damage, probably stay afloat but wold have lost some capabilities through shrapnel or direct hits. Could any of the turrets survive a ATGW hit or rounds form a 14.5 HMG? Can the hull and superstructure protect teh crew form the latter? I am sure the T-31 would take out quite a few of the boat during such an engagement but these craft are expendable to the IRG as are their crew.

I just do not see the deterrent effect of the T-31 once its capabilities are known, being the same as a T-26 or T-45. The T-31s main weapon would be its Wildcat but the opposition would know this and priorities it during any attack. Also imaging if they fired shore based AShMs whilst the T-31 was busing defending itself from the Swarm. Even just illuminating the Ship would make things difficult and cause a distraction, or they could launch say an old Silkworm but have it deliberately miss.

Our current ROE are well known to those who could mean us harm. Unfortunately they do give the initiative to the other side until they show their true intensions.

[Tempest414]

all RN ship are under the same ROE's and all would take the same damage in fact if Type 23 , 26 , 45 would be in a hole world of shit if they had there 30mm knocked out as this would only leave them with in the the case of T-26/45 a Phalanx and a 114mm with a slow rate of fire and in the case of T-23 just the 114mm as for a SSGW being fired at the ship that is what CAMM is there for

[J. Tattersall]

unaccountable civil service

In future please refer to the Senior Civil Service, some of us actually worked bloody hard within a crap system!!

As for "Cobblers", have a look at how the IRG arm their fast attack boats, and how close they currently get to warships before backing off. If they decided to attack for some idiotic reason they would be little to stop them launching whatever they are carrying from a relatively short range. I am sure the T-31 would respond quickly but it would take damage, probably stay afloat but wold have lost some capabilities through shrapnel or direct hits. Could any of the turrets survive a ATGW hit or rounds form a 14.5 HMG? Can the hull and superstructure protect teh crew form the latter? I am sure the T-31 would take out quite a few of the boat during such an engagement but these craft are expendable to the IRG as are their crew.

I just do not see the deterrent effect of the T-31 once its capabilities are known, being the same as a T-26 or T-45. The T-31s main weapon would be its Wildcat but the opposition would know this and priorities it during any attack. Also imaging if they fired shore based AShMs whilst the T-31 was busing defending itself from the Swarm. Even just illuminating the Ship would make things difficult and cause a distraction, or they could launch say an old Silkworm but have it deliberately miss.

Our current ROE are well known to those who could mean us harm. Unfortunately they do give the initiative to the other side until they show their true intensions.

Total tosh.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I just do not see the deterrent effect of the T-31 once its capabilities are known, being the same as a T-26 or T-45. The T-31s main weapon would be its Wildcat but the opposition would know this and priorities it during any attack. Also imaging if they fired shore based AShMs whilst the T-31 was busing defending itself from the Swarm. Even just illuminating the Ship would make things difficult and cause a distraction, or they could launch say an old Silkworm but have it deliberately miss.

Our current ROE are well known to those who could mean us harm. Unfortunately they do give the initiative to the other side until they show their true intensions.

Sorry, I still cannot understand what you want to argue.

As said, T45 nor T26, T23 are even worse than T31 when countering the fast boat swarms. So, T31 is the best asset there. Do you agree?

If yes, I guess you are claiming that the ROE must be renewed so that RN ship can sink those fast boat before they get fire? (I guess not).

You said Wildcat is the T-31s main weapon, that's true for attacking ships/boats over the horizon, but surely meaningless against fast boats peacefully reaching near you. Alway, guns are the fastest and strongest counter.

May be I am completely missing your point, sorry, if such.

[Ron5]

If we can agree that the modern era is around 50 years or since about 1971, how many classes of RN FRIGATES have had absolutely no idea what was happening sub surface?

Again come on if you fit a HMS to T-31 it is a frigate ( Which it is by the way ) fit a HMS to a B2 and it is still a OPV

Your logic is faulty. @Poiuytrewq did not say all ships with sonar are frigates. Good thing too, otherwise all fishing boats would qualify.

[Tempest414]

If we can agree that the modern era is around 50 years or since about 1971, how many classes of RN FRIGATES have had absolutely no idea what was happening sub surface?

Again come on if you fit a HMS to T-31 it is a frigate ( Which it is by the way ) fit a HMS to a B2 and it is still a OPV

Your logic is faulty. @Poiuytrewq did not say all ships with sonar are frigates. Good thing too, otherwise all fishing boats would qualify.

No its not what he is saying is if it dose not have a sonar it can not be a frigate which is wrong. No matter how you want to pull it about type 31 is a Frigate yes it needs more kit but the fact remains we still don't really know what it will have.

[Bring Deeps]

The issue of asymmetric warfare and surprise attack is an interesting and topical one.

HMS York sunk by Italian motor boats in Souda Bay, HMAS Sydney sunk by Kormorant and most recently Armenian tanks destroyed by Azerbaijani drones/loitering munitions are obvious examples.

A combined drone and motor boat attack would be a significant threat. The drones could take out the radar and weapon systems making it easier for the MBs to go for the hull.

We have probably all read those interesting articles by Navy Lookout on the weapons sensors used by RN ships and their positions. If we have then the bad guys will have.

In fact I am surprised terrorists haven't tried it already against a target like HMS Montrose.

[Poiuytrewq]

If we can agree that the modern era is around 50 years or since about 1971, how many classes of RN FRIGATES have had absolutely no idea what was happening sub surface?

Again come on if you fit a HMS to T-31 it is a frigate ( Which it is by the way ) fit a HMS to a B2 and it is still a OPV

Your logic is faulty. @Poiuytrewq did not say all ships with sonar are frigates. Good thing too, otherwise all fishing boats would qualify.

No its not what he is saying is if it dose not have a sonar it can not be a frigate which is wrong. No matter how you want to pull it about type 31 is a Frigate yes it needs more kit but the fact remains we still don't really know what it will have.

The point I was making was if the T31 is introduced without a hull mounted sonar it will be the first class of RN Frigates in the modern era to have such a capability so obviously deleted.....for no other practical benefit but to save money.

Why were hull mounted sonars essential up until this point on every class of RN Frigates for the last 50 or 60 years but suddenly they are deemed unnecessary? Plain and simple it is to save money.

No other Frigate class in the world is being introduced at this time without a hull mounted sonar. None. Why is the UK a special case. It is just to save money.....there is no other logical explanation.

12 CAMM is not enough now or in 10 years time. The reason 12 CAMM is being proposed for the T31 is just to save money. Simple.

Here are the specs for the USN's soon to be introduced Constellation Frigate Class.

MK 110 57mm gun
32-cell MK 41 Vertical Launching System
16 Naval Strike Missiles
MK 49 Guided Missile Launching System
Four MK 53 MOD 9 Decoy Launching System
Two AN-SLQ-32(V)6 Shipboard Electronic Warfare System
MH-60R Seahawk plus a UAV
Aegis Baseline
AN/SPY-6(V3) Radar

Why so heavily armed compared with the T31?

Some interesting background on the decision making process of the Constellation Class here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... DttWbuNAmK

"an estimated full load displacement that is about 76% as great as that of Flight III
DDG-51s, and an estimated unit procurement cost that is about 49% as great as
that of Flight III DDG-51s"

It's impossible to directly compare UK and US procurement costs but building Frigates that are around half the cost of your top rate escorts is pretty straightforward to transfer.

In US terms the T31 isn't even nearly a Frigate, it's more of a US coastguard cutter....with 12 CAMM

[J. Tattersall]

No other Frigate class in the world is being introduced at this time without a hull mounted sonar. None. Why is the UK a special case. It is just to save money.....there is no other logical explanation.

The logical explanation its that it's not an ASW frigate.

[RichardIC]

In US terms the T31 isn't even nearly a frigate

For for the sake of God, how many times?

[J. Tattersall]

12 CAMM is not enough now or in 10 years time.

How do you know? What is the right answer then?

Bearing in mind that in high threat warfare it'd be in a TG with T45 and T26.

[Poiuytrewq]

The logical explanation its that it's not an ASW frigate.

Why does RN now need Frigates that are not capable of detecting Submarines?

[J. Tattersall]

Why does RN now need Frigates that are not capable of detecting Submarines?

It does. Which is why it's spending a king's ransom on eight T26 FF to do the job properly.

[Poiuytrewq]

How do you know? What is the right answer then?

Good question.

I agree the 57mm/40mm combination has merit but in my opinion, from an AAW viewpoint the T31's 57mm and 2x 40mm is basically CIWS and should not be relied upon....in effect a weapon of last resort.

Due to this the T31's should have the tubes installed to embark 24 CAMM if required and up to 32 cells if they are to be tasked with escorting the LRG(s).

[Jdam]

The Type 26 will have 72 cells and the type 45 will be upgraded to 72 cells for missiles. It looks like the future of the Royal Navy is more cells of future war ships. This makes me wonder if the type 31 will have only 12 cells or maybe that is why the 45's are being upgraded due to the lack of launchers on the Type 31.

[NickC]

Fincantieri stand at Athens DEFA 2021 showing headline specs of their FREMM variant for the Greek frigate contest, competing against the Babcock Arrowhead A140 amongst others, of interest to note is they have changed the expensive/quiet electric HED CODLAG for a less costly CODOG propulsion system, shades of T26 CODLOG vs T31 CODAD.

A full fat frigate 127mm main gun, 25 and 40mm cannons, 32 cells for SAM - CAMM-ER? 8 SSMs, 6 LWTs, HMS and VDS etc.

[Lord Jim]

I believe comparing the USN's Constellation Class with the T-31 is a bit unfair as the former is more akin to the T-26, but the comparison of the former with the Flight III AB's is far more relevant. My view is simply that because the T-31 was built to a budget that was insufficient to produce a proper escort, to design such a platform the Contractor and MoD had to agree to remove or significantly reduce capabilities that would in the past been looked upon as essential.

The result is a ship that is probably the best the MoD could afford for the budget even after agreeing to provide a not insignificant amount of GFE in an effort to increase capability. Since the five vessels were ordered, the MoD has made a concerted effort to portray them as true additions to the Royal Navy's escort force, whilst failing to mention they have a rather niche capability, and avoiding any capabilities that would usually be standard on any RN escort.

The comparison to the French Floreal class is probably the most accurate in terms of capability, but I do not see the French calling theirs an escort. The use of the T-31 within a larger Task Group is also a strange idea. What will the T-31 actually bring to such a force besides an extra Wildcat. The fact the the T-31 would require an escort of one or more true escorts says a lot. Where would the T)31 be stationed within the formation of the TG?

There are still many question the T-31 has yet to answer, and I think until the ships are in the water and are confronted by real world situations, nothing is know for certain. I choose to be sceptical at the present time and believe no has any definitive answers at present.

[J. Tattersall]

T31's should have the tubes installed to embark 24 CAMM if required and up to 32 cells

I can understand why one would like more, let's face it that would be great, but this always comes at the expense of something else. So why is 24 or 32 the right answer and 12 the wrong answer? What is so terrible about 12?

[Poiuytrewq]

Why does RN now need Frigates that are not capable of detecting Submarines?

It does. Which is why it's spending a king's ransom on eight T26 FF to do the job properly.

Paying for it by blinding the rest of the Frigate fleet?

It's completely illogical.

[J. Tattersall]

It's completely illogical.

Why is it illogical to have a core of specialist ships that can do the job properly, as opposed to a larger number on whom the ASW money had been spread too thin to allow any to be effective?

[Poiuytrewq]

I can understand why one would like more,

Up to a point, I haven't suggested fitting 32 or 48.

this always comes at the expense of something else.

My fear is that it could eventually come at the expense of a T31 crew.

So why is 24 or 32 the right answer and 12 the wrong answer? What is so terrible about 12?

Nothing unless you need 13....

The T31 will be a fine addition to the fleet but it must have at least 24 CAMM and a hull mounted sonar when commissioned.

8 AShM and Captas 1 or 2 would complete the package but I put these into the 'nice to have' category.

Just my opinion.

[J. Tattersall]

but it must have at least 24 CAMM

But why?