Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
abc123 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:the South Seas fleet alone has 29 frigates and corvettes and it only needs one of them to be overly aggressive and damage one of the 2 OPV's and it is out of the game
This number says, up-arming River B2 or sending T31 will not change the game significantly. In that case, sending River B2 "as is" does have some effect. Up-arming them has another effect, and T31 yet another effect. There are no such thing as "sending River B2 as is" is meaningless. They just differ.
Yeah, in quantity of laughing it will produce in Beijing. It's inversely proportional to quantity and quality of weapons on some RN ship sent there. :lol: :lol:
But, even if you send a T45 destroyer, with Chinese ballistic anti-ship missile, and T45's complete lack of ABM capability, I guess, they will laugh with highest quantity in case of T45. River B2 shall be much more better, I think, as it can be at sea as long as 300 days a year (or even longer), which will be more annoying than only short visit of T45?
What I wanted to say is that it's obviously the HMGs intent to go and provoke China. All the other explanations (piracy, training of locals etc. ) are just a smokescreen.

Now, it's my opinion that UK shoulf stay away from the Far Eastern conflict as much as possible, mainly because they can't contribute much, and they have a lot to loose by angering China. In the end, a new Cold (and especially hot ) war isn't good for anyone, UK included.

But, having said that, if the HMGs intent is to provoke China, then at least they should send properly equipped forces that will not be sitting ducks. Democracies are supposedly looking after their citizens, not using them as bait/cannon fodder for benefit of "special relationship". It's a disgrace that a dictatorship like China equips it's soldiers better than old democracy like the UK.

So, either send a full CVBG (and a properly equipped one) there or dont screw around and think that two OPVs will mean anything to anyone.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

abc123 wrote:What I wanted to say is that it's obviously the HMGs intent to go and provoke China. All the other explanations (piracy, training of locals etc. ) are just a smokescreen.

Now, it's my opinion that UK shoulf stay away from the Far Eastern conflict as much as possible, mainly because they can't contribute much, and they have a lot to loose by angering China. In the end, a new Cold (and especially hot ) war isn't good for anyone, UK included.

But, having said that, if the HMGs intent is to provoke China, then at least they should send properly equipped forces that will not be sitting ducks. Democracies are supposedly looking after their citizens, not using them as bait/cannon fodder for benefit of "special relationship". It's a disgrace that a dictatorship like China equips it's soldiers better than old democracy like the UK.

So, either send a full CVBG (and a properly equipped one) there or dont screw around and think that two OPVs will mean anything to anyone.
I understand your point. But, I respectfully disagree. No UK cannot confront China alone. Nor the ASEAN nation, Japan, or even US (at least in Asia). That is why it is important to "be there", so that nation confronting China, like Vietnam, Philippine, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thai, and Singapore, do not think alone. These nation must "live with" China. But, they do not "belong to" China, and need something/somewhere to withstand, while keeping peaceful and enjoying good economical relation one another.

Small "hands" (River B2s or T31, or Bay or alike) to support their activity when needed, are the things UK need there. Keep in tough. I even think it is much needed than occasional CVTF deployment.

Political power game needs sustained commitment. UK need not to "fight" against China. UK shall even support them, when some help be needed. What UK need is "respected as a player" there. (or, completely do nothing there).

This is my point of view. Not saying this is the only point, but surely I think one point of view. Thanks.

Lord Jim
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

The UK Governments talks the talk about conventional deterrence regarding the increased level of competition between nations but is not equipping our Armed Forces with the mass and tools to carry out such a role. Yes we can operate as part of a multi-national force but on the the whole our mass will dictate being a middle to low end member of such a force. Even the Carrier Group cannot be effective without the aid of other nations as an example. This is not inherently a bad thing but it does dampen the idea of Global Britain being a world class power for good.

Ron5
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

Tinman wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Tinman wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Tinman wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Tinman wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:
Tinman wrote:Want to back that up?
AS it stands it has no sonar either hull mounted or as a tail therefore cannot detect underwater targets. The Wildcat can only drop ASW Torpedoes or Depth Charges after being queued by off board systems, usually its mothership. Yes it may get the barest of ASW capability in say littoral areas with unmanned systems but it is limited in the size of these it can carry as it does really have a mission bay.

AS far as fleet upgrades are concerned, I am beginning to think the Interim AShM is becoming more important. Showing you are equipped to launch such a weapon in retaliation to being fired upon has a deterrence factor. At present, besides the Wildcat the RN's escort fleet has little offensive capability, out gunned by many nations at a lower tier. WE can defend ourselves but have difficulty shooting back/
In what scenario would a T31 go up against SSN/K alone?
So the Type 31 "escort" needs an escort?
Dear me, in what scenario Can you see any watship fighting alone?
Not a student of naval history then?

Last 30 years? Any examples?
History started precisely 30 years ago? Dear me, that's pretty weak.
Two nations post ww2 have sunk a ship from the subsurface, I can't recall any watship fighting in it's own, against a never peer or peer, can you?
Moving the goalposts eh? Putting them back to where they were and answering your question:
Can you see any warship fighting alone?
There's been literally hundreds of attacks on ships since the end of WW2. Civilian and warship. Most did not result in a sinking. Some are more famous than others. Eilat, Sheffield, Atlantic Conveyer, Belgrano etc. are well known. Others less so. Cheonan was sunk by a North Korean submarine but not many remember the name.

But the bottom line is that the majority of the attacks on warships occurred when they were alone and not operating with an escort.

So Mr RAF, you are wrong.

Ron5
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

J. Tattersall wrote:
Ron5 wrote:I've been to Singapore, they won't be able to afford anything.
Why this fixation by so many that they're going to spend their time in Singapore? The Indo-Pacific region is massive.
Yeah totally fixated, can't eat, can't sleep, worrying about what the sailors will do when they're tied up at their new and expensive home port (eyes roll)..

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

Lord Jim wrote:The UK Governments talks the talk about conventional deterrence regarding the increased level of competition between nations but is not equipping our Armed Forces with the mass and tools to carry out such a role. Yes we can operate as part of a multi-national force but on the the whole our mass will dictate being a middle to low end member of such a force. Even the Carrier Group cannot be effective without the aid of other nations as an example. This is not inherently a bad thing but it does dampen the idea of Global Britain being a world class power for good.
Agreed, except the thing that isn't inherently a bad thing. It is. UK plc should have strong, competent and well equipped armed forces. Now, would HMG deploy them here or there, in support of this or that country or against- that's entirely HMGs decision to make. IMHO, they shouldn't make such decisions lightly, like in some previos cases. But, UK has to have something meaningful and strong to send- and if they don't have- them it's an inherently bad thing. UK isn't Albania.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
abc123 wrote:What I wanted to say is that it's obviously the HMGs intent to go and provoke China. All the other explanations (piracy, training of locals etc. ) are just a smokescreen.

Now, it's my opinion that UK shoulf stay away from the Far Eastern conflict as much as possible, mainly because they can't contribute much, and they have a lot to loose by angering China. In the end, a new Cold (and especially hot ) war isn't good for anyone, UK included.

But, having said that, if the HMGs intent is to provoke China, then at least they should send properly equipped forces that will not be sitting ducks. Democracies are supposedly looking after their citizens, not using them as bait/cannon fodder for benefit of "special relationship". It's a disgrace that a dictatorship like China equips it's soldiers better than old democracy like the UK.

So, either send a full CVBG (and a properly equipped one) there or dont screw around and think that two OPVs will mean anything to anyone.
I understand your point. But, I respectfully disagree. No UK cannot confront China alone. Nor the ASEAN nation, Japan, or even US (at least in Asia). That is why it is important to "be there", so that nation confronting China, like Vietnam, Philippine, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thai, and Singapore, do not think alone. These nation must "live with" China. But, they do not "belong to" China, and need something/somewhere to withstand, while keeping peaceful and enjoying good economical relation one another.

Small "hands" (River B2s or T31, or Bay or alike) to support their activity when needed, are the things UK need there. Keep in tough. I even think it is much needed than occasional CVTF deployment.

Political power game needs sustained commitment. UK need not to "fight" against China. UK shall even support them, when some help be needed. What UK need is "respected as a player" there. (or, completely do nothing there).

This is my point of view. Not saying this is the only point, but surely I think one point of view. Thanks.
OK, a fair point.
I'm not against being there. But being there with something meaningful. They don't use junks anymore there. Also, no way that anybody ( especially Indonesia, where the piracy is the most acute problem ) will let UK to hunt pirates there at will. Also, believe it or not, navies of Singapore, malaysia etc. do probably know how to tie a ship or sail in formation. You can only offend them that way.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

abc123 wrote:Also, believe it or not, navies of Singapore, malaysia etc. do probably know how to tie a ship or sail in formation.
For sure. I did not meant such "support". As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, UK being there "together" is the support needed. Make it "multi-national", not "bi-national". This is the support they need.

This is what I meant. Thanks.

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
abc123 wrote:Also, believe it or not, navies of Singapore, malaysia etc. do probably know how to tie a ship or sail in formation.
For sure. I did not meant such "support". As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, UK being there "together" is the support needed. Make it "multi-national", not "bi-national". This is the support they need.

This is what I meant. Thanks.
So, to conclude my thinking (I was interrupted in writing), if UK want's to send something to deterr China, then by all means, if that's the national policy, send something meaningfull. But please don't insult anybody (including China) by sending two damn OPVs (and half-arsed ones too). Nobody needs them there.

When UK plc actually gets a CVBG with it's own 32 F-35, two destroyers that actually work properly, equipped with ABM capabilities, frigates that can strike mainland with cruise missiles, equipped with at least 8 ASMs on each ship etc.- then send them by all means. But in the meanwhile, do not send good RN sailors in harms way just because you have some imperial delusions.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

SW1
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Probably best to send an astute

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:Probably best to send an astute
Not very visible, but very useful thing to send.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

SW1
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:Probably best to send an astute
Not very visible, but very useful thing to send.
Would be if it surfaced in the middle of the Chinese fleet then disappeared again.

Caribbean
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

abc123 wrote:just because you have some imperial delusions
Give it a rest, eh. Very childish. Our generation has very little to do with Empire and has no interest in returning to it. However, we do recognise that ambition in others, since we effectively wrote the playbook that the Chinese are currently using.

We do, however, understand world politics and the use of both diplomacy and power. We also have very professional armed forces, who are in possession of far more accurate, real world, information than you or I. Part of their job is to respond to diplomatic initiatives - do you think the UK has just decided to send a couple of gunboats off it's own bat, or do you think it's far more likely that this is the opening part of a longer-term strategy arranged with partner nations, to normalise the presence of RN ships in the region, initially using OPVs for "anti-piracy and protection of SLOCs", but which could later be swapped out for more capable platforms. Not everything is about how big your gun is.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:Probably best to send an astute
Not very visible, but very useful thing to send.
Would be if it surfaced in the middle of the Chinese fleet then disappeared again.
Agreed.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

Caribbean wrote:
abc123 wrote:just because you have some imperial delusions
Give it a rest, eh. Very childish. Our generation has very little to do with Empire and has no interest in returning to it. However, we do recognise that ambition in others, since we effectively wrote the playbook that the Chinese are currently using.

We do, however, understand world politics and the use of both diplomacy and power. We also have very professional armed forces, who are in possession of far more accurate, real world, information than you or I. Part of their job is to respond to diplomatic initiatives - do you think the UK has just decided to send a couple of gunboats off it's own bat, or do you think it's far more likely that this is the opening part of a longer-term strategy arranged with partner nations, to normalise the presence of RN ships in the region, initially using OPVs for "anti-piracy and protection of SLOCs", but which could later be swapped out for more capable platforms. Not everything is about how big your gun is.
Sending two OPVs there is the very definition of childish to me.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Repulse
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

abc123 wrote:Sending two OPVs there is the very definition of childish to me.
Quite the opposite, shows maturity that we are there to support not strut the stage and pretend we are something we are not. I think you are missing the point about the need to counter sub-war level conflict; the threat from China is real and the RN has a real positive contribution to make.

I do take your point on training the Singapore Navy, but believe it or not there are plenty of navies in the region who would be very happy to receive training from / or train alongside the RN.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Lord Jim
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Thing is you can say you have dispatched an Astute to the far east, but not actually send one. People look for it everywhere but cannot find it and so believe it is to quiet to be found. A win on both counts. :D

Repulse
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Lord Jim, the only issue is that you need a credible number to make that even possible… 3 or 4 more should do it :P
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Lord Jim
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Fait enough though we could keep changing the names to give the appearance we actually have more and to confuse the opposition where our SSNs are and who is actually at sea and so on. Far cheaper than actually building more boats, which is what we are not doing. WE should have built twelve to replace the Swiftsures with Batch 1 and the Trafalgars with Batch 2, the latter being lengthened with VLS for TLAM.

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

Repulse wrote:
abc123 wrote:Sending two OPVs there is the very definition of childish to me.
Quite the opposite, shows maturity that we are there to support not strut the stage and pretend we are something we are not. I think you are missing the point about the need to counter sub-war level conflict; the threat from China is real and the RN has a real positive contribution to make.

I do take your point on training the Singapore Navy, but believe it or not there are plenty of navies in the region who would be very happy to receive training from / or train alongside the RN.
Ok, let's agree to disagree.

About training, the only such navy that crosses my mind could be Cambodia. Others really don't need to learn anything from two low-tech ships like Rivers, I mean, what to learn, how to operate RHIB or 30 mm gun or navigation radar? They all have and use that allready for decades.

This situation reminds me about sending of HMS PoW and Repulse, during WW2, to deter IJN. We all know how it ended and how much that deterred them. If the HMG didn't send them, the end result would be the same, but the RN would have two battleships more and Tom Thumb and 3000 fine RN sailors would be alive for much longer. And maybe somewhere else they might actually make the difference.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Caribbean
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

abc123 wrote:I mean, what to learn,
Tactics, strategy, co-operation, processes and procedures of foreign navies, cross-platform helicopter operations, aggressor exercises, small boat exercises, non-compliant boarding exercises, manoeuvring as a fleet and probably dozens of other tasks that I would never think about. All of which professional navies do with allies at every opportunity. Both sides learn and record that information for future use.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Lord Jim
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

The presence of two River B2 in the Far East working with other navies to protect commercial shipping, especially in the known piracy hotspots would be an effective way to show the flag as well as make a contribution that would be useful to our allies with regards to cross train etc. But it would not have any deterrence effect in hostile nations whatsoever, unless you are will to use "Greenpeace" tactics and put your small boat in front of the Big Bad Enemy Warship to impede its movement briefly as well as call its bluff. They sink it, they have crossed a line they might not have wanted to.

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

Caribbean wrote:
abc123 wrote:I mean, what to learn,
Tactics, strategy, co-operation, processes and procedures of foreign navies, cross-platform helicopter operations, aggressor exercises, small boat exercises, non-compliant boarding exercises, manoeuvring as a fleet and probably dozens of other tasks that I would never think about. All of which professional navies do with allies at every opportunity. Both sides learn and record that information for future use.

You are aware that these countries do have their own navies for about 60+ years? Man would have thought that they managed to learn such things by now.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by abc123 »

Lord Jim wrote:The presence of two River B2 in the Far East working with other navies to protect commercial shipping, especially in the known piracy hotspots would be an effective way to show the flag as well as make
You really think that Indonesia would allow these Rivers to go chase pirates in their waters as they please? Come on, if they wanted to solve piracy, they would have done that allready alone.

Something like Indonesia or Malaysia sending their OPVs to Channel Islands to assist either UK or France in dealing with angry fishermans. No doubt that both countries would be positively thrilled with that. :lolno:

Also, another thing, as recent escape from Afghanistan shows, one day UK will go from FE (as once allready did), but Chins will still be there. So yes, these countries do have their problems with China (any China, democratic or communist, lets face it, if China was democratic country, it would allready be in war with the US, but CCP don't has to face elections), so if UK is willing to help there, fine, send something really useful. But if not, do not aggravate the situation.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

abc123 wrote:Ok, let's agree to disagree.

About training, the only such navy that crosses my mind could be Cambodia. Others really don't need to learn anything from two low-tech ships like Rivers, I mean, what to learn, how to operate RHIB or 30 mm gun or navigation radar? They all have and use that allready for decades.

This situation reminds me about sending of HMS PoW and Repulse, during WW2, to deter IJN. We all know how it ended and how much that deterred them. If the HMG didn't send them, the end result would be the same, but the RN would have two battleships more and Tom Thumb and 3000 fine RN sailors would be alive for much longer. And maybe somewhere else they might actually make the difference.
Firstly I am sure you have heard of the RN's FOST program that trains all UK ships and Navies all around the world just because a ship dose not have a full set of weapons dose not mean it can't act that dose in a training ex tactic and training are what win battles like in the Falkland where the Argentine pilots lacked nothing in skill and bravery but lacked modern tactical training and combat. We see all the time navies doing RAS training without a tanker. As said above there are many training tasks that can and will be carried out

As for the POW/ Repulse mistakes are made in war they Should have waited for a carrier to arrive as I have said before had Indomitable arrived and been with the battle group thing would have been different as her air-wing of 22 Sea Hurricanes and 18 Wildcats would have been a match for the attacking force but it was not

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