Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Ron5]

EAPS

Bollox. No such system was trialed.

It's spelt bollocks.

Luciano and his team, working on enhanced area protection and survivability, tested an integrated system April 22 by shooting down a class 2 unmanned aerial system using command guidance and command warhead detonation at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona. Funding for development and testing was provided by the ARDEC Technology Office.

The April 22, 2015, test was performed with a single shot Mann barrel. The UAS was flying a surveillance-type track and was engaged on the approach path leg. The airplane fell precipitously from its flight.

The integrated test demonstrated a proof-of-principle that direct fire, command guided ammunition can intercept and negate aerial threats, Luciano said.

Innovative Army technology gains new potential By Ed Lopez, Picatinny Arsenal Public Affairs July 14, 2015
https://www.army.mil/article/151792/inn ... _potential

Further info, after some fire-control improvements were made after the April 22 tests the final testing in Aug. 19,2015 at Yuma where they shot down two class 2 UAS, ~300mph, the intercept engagements occurred at over a kilometer range and about 1500 meters. The second shoot down was executed at a ~50% greater range and exceeded the EAPS demonstration objectives.

The Picatinny 50mm Bushmaster was developed for EAPS now the XM913 as Halidon mentioned above, EAPS plan was to mount a pair of 50mm Bushmasters on the HEMTT, the US Army heavy truck

Back to the point of the discussion which was looking for an effective and least costly method for defending ships from UAS etc at short range and thought the US Army EAPS gun objectives would be a good benchmark as designed "In order to minimise the electronics on board the interceptor and to make it cheaper, all the ‘smarts’ are basically done on the ground station".

The Bofors 40mm and 57mm guns which fire 3P rounds which expect much more expensive than the Bushmaster 50mm rounds, USN paid an average of $4,700 over the years for each of its 16,500 57mm 3P Mk295 rounds prior to 2020 when they last bought them, USN since moved to the L3 57mm AlaMO round.

From <https://www.army.mil/article/156634/Arm ... echnology/>

Sigh. You claimed the US Army trialed a twin 50mm gun system in 2015. That was, and still remains, utter bollox.

[Clive F]

How much is a "bog standard / Plain vanilla / Ready salted" 57mm shell?

[donald_of_tokyo]

How much is a "bog standard / Plain vanilla / Ready salted" 57mm shell?

https://www.dacis.com/budget/budget_pdf ... 266_10.pdf

57MM, 3P MK295 unit cost = $4,278.47
57MM ALaMO (HE-4G) unit cost = $14,000.00

57MM, HE-PD unit cost = $1,750.00.

Within 2013-2019 contract, US ordered

57MM, 3P MK295 x12440 rounds
57MM ALaMO (HE-4G) x2821 rounds
57MM, HE-PD unit cost x11450 rounds

[NickC]

How much is a "bog standard / Plain vanilla / Ready salted" 57mm shell?

https://www.dacis.com/budget/budget_pdf ... 266_10.pdf

57MM, 3P MK295 unit cost = $4,278.47
57MM ALaMO (HE-4G) unit cost = $14,000.00

57MM, HE-PD unit cost = $1,750.00.

Within 2013-2019 contract, US ordered

57MM, 3P MK295 x12440 rounds
57MM ALaMO (HE-4G) x2821 rounds
57MM, HE-PD unit cost x11450 rounds

.

The PB FY2022 USN weapons budget so some more recent info

Prior to 2020 for the 57mm 3P Mk295 they paid an average of $4,695 each for 16,457 rounds, total $77.3 million , have bought no further rounds since.

The 57mm L3 ALaMO round, which won out over the BAE ORKA a development of its 3P for the small boat/anti-swarm scenario contract, ~10km/5.4nm range, FY2022 budget - $20,492 each, 1,058 rounds, $21.9 million total.

Madfires not shown as a R&D project

[donald_of_tokyo]

The PB FY2022 USN weapons budget so some more recent info

Prior to 2020 for the 57mm 3P Mk295 they paid an average of $4,695 each for 16,457 rounds, total $77.3 million , have bought no further rounds since.

The 57mm L3 ALaMO round, which won out over the BAE ORKA a development of its 3P for the small boat/anti-swarm scenario contract, ~10km/5.4nm range, FY2022 budget - $20,492 each, 1,058 rounds, $21.9 million total.

Madfires not shown as a R&D project

Thanks. Two comments.

- last 3P rounds are delivered on 2021. So the production was running until now.

- ALaMO is 4.4 times expensive than 3P. If USN think it has its own rationale, it will mean ALaMo is more than 5 times effective than 3P, at least against fast-boat swarm. Interesting. This calculation make me wonder:

the 120 ready-rounds in the turret is now equivalent to about 5x 120 = about 600 rounds of 3P, if filled with ALaMO. This will mean the Iranian fast-boat swarm tactics has been already dead? If so, RN T31, if equipped with ALaMO rounds, will be a "killer" against the Iranian fast-boat swarm in the Gulf region. Of course, for low-end AAW task, 3P is still very nice (see Bofors/BAE movie on using 3P rounds to kill drones. Very reasonable choice).

[NickC]

EAPS

Bollox. No such system was trialed.

Sigh. You claimed the US Army trialed a twin 50mm gun system in 2015. That was, and still remains, utter bollox.

Sigh You are changing your wording, do agree the twin gun 50mm gun system was not trialed, should have made that clear in my original post, but the proof of principle with the 50mm EAPS system was successfully trialed in 2015 shooting down the UAS's with its new 50mm projectile, CW radar etc, your original post with its usual offensive language said of the EAPS system " No such system was trialed" you made a mistake, every one makes mistakes, get over it.

PS Why do you have a fixation to use offensive language so often, assume its a personality disorder?

[NickC]

- ALaMO is 4.4 times expensive than 3P. If USN think it has its own rationale, it will mean ALaMo is more than 5 times effective than 3P, at least against fast-boat swarm. Interesting. This calculation make me wonder:

the 120 ready-rounds in the turret is now equivalent to about 5x 120 = about 600 rounds of 3P, if filled with ALaMO. This will mean the Iranian fast-boat swarm tactics has been already dead? If so, RN T31, if equipped with ALaMO rounds, will be a "killer" against the Iranian fast-boat swarm in the Gulf region. Of course, for low-end AAW task, 3P is still very nice (see Bofors/BAE movie on using 3P rounds to kill drones. Very reasonable choice).

If you haven't seen the Defense and Aerospace Report video from April 2018 interview with L3 on the ALaMO, worth a view, says much the same as your post, mentions the USN requirement was to take out an attack by 30 fast swarm boats, so round needs to be very accurate and to take boats out by minimum number of rounds reflecting the limited ready magazine capacity and time constraints.

How effective the 3P round would be in this scenario don't know, as said BAE bid with the ORKA a development of the 3P specifically to meet the USN requirement, speculating 3P more more suited to AAW?

[Ron5]

@NickC

You wrote

The gun option they trialed in 2015 used twin barrel 50mm Bushmasters firing 10 round bursts

I replied

Bollox. No such system was trialed

End of.

[NickC]

@NickC

You wrote

The gun option they trialed in 2015 used twin barrel 50mm Bushmasters firing 10 round bursts

I replied

Bollox. No such system was trialed

End of.

Again your repeating the offensive language of your past misleading quote and in theory banned on site, if it was allowed I'll use appropriate industrial language to reply. You have sadly a past reputation where you have attracted the ire of other posters with the comments such as "Now I have finished laughing at you pomposity and stupidity" and "You really are an idiot. Why don’t you go troll somewhere else?" I don't want you banned as on occasion you do make informative posts, just to abide by the site rules, is that asking too much from you.

You were quite correct to pull me up, i made a mistake as it was only a prototype proof of principle of the EAPS system that was trailed successfully whereas with your original reply was misleading as it implied the EAPS system was never trailed, which I corrected, not as your above selective quote implies, the original below for ref

The gun option they trialed in 2015 used twin barrel 50mm Bushmasters firing 10 round bursts. To minimise costs, cheap, no expensive electronics in projectile eg no 3P, used a CW interferometer radar which was capable of centimetric accuracy and tracked both target and projectile with the projectile incorporating a simple thruster for course correction and a tantalum-tungsten alloy liner to form forward propelled penetrators. Point to note that they went with the 50mm shell, presume the minimum firepower required for C-RAM

Bollox. No such system was trialed.

[Ron5]

You have sadly a past reputation where you have attracted the ire of other posters with the comments such as "Now I have finished laughing at you pomposity and stupidity" and "You really are an idiot. Why don’t you go troll somewhere else?"

I should be banned because some non-English commentator said that about me on a different forum because they disagreed with my explanation of the Royal Navy GP designation??

Moderators will be here any minute now ....

[Lord Jim]

Can we have a separate thread where people can go and have a head to head competition. If you get something wrong take it on the chin and move on. Even then your comment might actually lead to a thread taking an interesting turn so never be afraid to put forward an opinion, but be prepared for it to be shot down.

A 50mm may or may not have undergone trials, but it is just one weapon amongst many in this size and capability. Can we move things along here please has anyone got anything interesting to put forward?

[Tempest414]

These are shaping up to be better armed than a T31!

https://www.navylookout.com/small-warsh ... -scotland/

Can anyone identify the VLS behind the 76mm?

These will be better armed than all RN escorts when it comes the anti ships and high lights and questions the need for the I-SSGW for me the RN should be buying I-SSGW for Type 45 and 31 with FCASW when it comes on line going on type 26 and 83 and I-SSGW being moved from type 45 to type 32 as and when

[GarethDavies1]

Don't worry we've got we well educated procurement experts in charge of the programme trying to make it as long and as drawn out as possible.

[NickC]

The French have signed a MOU with Greece for the three FDI HN frigates plus one option, with ASTER 30 B1 and Exocet MM40 Block 3c missiles, built in French shipyards.

Moving the goal posts, what is noticeable is that the contract is totally different than originally specified by the Greek Navy along the lines of four frigates with high local build content, refurbishment of their MEKO 200's and of two intermediate solution ships. Speculating France offered a very favourable financial package, subsidised price and long repayment term at nominal or zero interest. The other bidders including Babcock with the A140 will reflect on their bids and have to write off their costs to experience.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -frigates/

[RichardIC]

It's the typical French approach isn't it? Tell the customer they don't really know what they want and they'd be a lot better off letting France write their requirements for them. In fairness it has backfired too (Canadian frigates, Belgian fighters).

So much for this being all about regenerating Greek shipbuilding.

TBH I always thought Arrowhead wasn't the ideal fit for Greece. Its big selling points are endurance, future growth potential and price.

The Greek Navy rarely leaves the eastern Med and they want something that delivers now, although I'm sure the Babcock offer would have been significantly fightier than the initial RN spec.

France seems to have got around the price issue by offering a military alliance against Turkey.

[Defiance]

Probably want to court France enough to put the screws to Qatar and stop them basing brand new Rafale in Turkey for training purposes ...

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turk ... -agreement

[Poiuytrewq]

France seems to have got around the price issue by offering a military alliance against Turkey.

What will the full cost of a military alliance with Greece be in the end?

Promising military alliances to secure military contracts is easy, explaining to the French public why their armed forces is getting sucked into a far off regional conflict will be a harder sell.

[dmereifield]

France seems to have got around the price issue by offering a military alliance against Turkey.

What will the full cost of a military alliance with Greece be in the end?

Promising military alliances to secure military contracts is easy, explaining to the French public why their armed forces is getting sucked into a far off regional conflict will be a harder sell.

The French won't get sucked into a conflict (far off, or otherwise) for the Greeks

[BB85]

France is already in a military alliance with Greece called Nato so it hasn't promised anything it isn't already signed up to. France building all 3 ships at home will not be popular with the Greek electorate although it will save significantly on the build. I assume Greece gets the first ships of the line then for the new class. It does look very impressive maybe they will purchase some €70bn subs too

[Scimitar54]

I did not know that France was also building and selling Battleships to Greece!

[wheatley.mr]

I'd like to ask a dumb question because the answers will be educatonal.

How much cobham armour would a corvete / frigate need, to be highly resistant to the sort of weapons that could be fitted to / fired from small boats, similar to those that make up e.g. Iranian boat swarms?

What would be the costs and consequences of building a ship to that sort of spec - e.g. excessively expensive? Noisy? Or unable to do other tasks (perhaps because of the inability to effectively armour some types of sensor?) Or too easy to just mount a bigger weapon? etc.

Nobody is considering designs this, so I assume the answer is "no", but I'm curious to know why this is the case?

[inch]

Probably weight constraints/ safe margins left for future upgrades ,ie more on ship hull less available for systems/ weapons / facilities ,also cost not just armour but if heavier ship more powerful engines /fuel burn to run at required specs needed

[Lord Jim]

Yes weight would be the major issue, armour plating of any type is pretty heavy, and many of these "Small" missiles can have a shaped charge warhead or a penetrator to punch through to the ships interior. Even if a warship was armoured, an opponent could still put it out of action by scoring a "Mission Kill", by destroying radars and other electronic systems that cannot be prtected by armour.

[Ron5]

excessively expensive

Most ship armor is steel. Orders of magnitude less expensive.

[Ron5]

Diagram showing how much has been changed from FREMM to make Constellation ..