Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Lord Jim]

Another hand me down that should be planned into the life of the T-31 as GFE. Removed from the T-23s as they are retired and held in storage until the T-31s begin their first overhaul in dry dock.

[Poiuytrewq]

If all these goodies get bolted onto the T31's at their first major refit the T32's will get cancelled IMO.

I suspect one of the reasons why RN isn't insisting on a T23 weapon/sensor fit on the T31's is due to the fear that the T32's would be cancelled immediately if such an upgrade was to become reality.

[Lord Jim]

Or the more capable T-31s could be the basis for the T-32, increasing the size of the Royal Navy as has been promised, with capable vessels able to do more than one specialised role in the Gulf.
6x T-45
8x T-26
10x T31/32
It would be a start.

[Ron5]

Another hand me down that should be planned into the life of the T-31 as GFE. Removed from the T-23s as they are retired and held in storage until the T-31s begin their first overhaul in dry dock.

Probably earmarked for the T26's.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Another hand me down that should be planned into the life of the T-31 as GFE. Removed from the T-23s as they are retired and held in storage until the T-31s begin their first overhaul in dry dock.

Probably earmarked for the T26's.

Only 8 of the 13 S2050 onboard T23 is going to be upgraded to S2150. Of course, they will be used in T26.

Remaining 5 sonars are S2050, not fully digital device. If not upgraded to S2150 standard, its technical support will stop within several years, I guess. If a hull sonar for T31 is needed, shall it be S2150? Or much cheaper one, like MFS7000? Or, even cheaper one, like Thales BlueWatcher? Or, shall T31 rely in other assets for SSK detection?

[donald_of_tokyo]

"HMS Monmouth and Montrose will be part of proposed deal to supply Hellenic Navy with interim frigates and then Type 31s."

Sorry, a bit cynical. But,
- when UK sold HMS Ocean right after its refit, we all said "what a waste of money".
- If UK sells HMS Monmouth before any such modification, we say "terrible"?
I understand HMS Monmouth is as good as HMS Montrose. She just needs a bit of modification (the same applied to HMS Montrose).

Modification of HMS Monmouth could be simple and cheaper, as Hellenic navy may not require UK RN standard in all fields. Only good is there? What's wrong?

[Caribbean]

Monmouth has been decommissioned and stripped of almost everything moveable, I believe, ready for scrapping. It would take a major effort to restore her to active duty. Montrose is still active

[GarethDavies1]

So what's in it for the Royal Navy?

[donald_of_tokyo]

Monmouth has been decommissioned and stripped of almost everything moveable, I believe, ready for scrapping. It would take a major effort to restore her to active duty. Montrose is still active

Doesn't matter. When in modernization, you naturally strip off most of your equipments. Gun, radar, SatCom, Sonar, EO-FCS, and even diesel gensets. No problem here. State of the hull structure is a big issue. It all depends on how "good" she was taken care of.

[tomuk]

Monmouth has been decommissioned and stripped of almost everything moveable, I believe, ready for scrapping. It would take a major effort to restore her to active duty. Montrose is still active

Doesn't matter. When in modernization, you naturally strip off most of your equipments. Gun, radar, SatCom, Sonar, EO-FCS, and even diesel gensets. No problem here. State of the hull structure is a big issue. It all depends on how "good" she was taken care of.

I'm not sure of Monmouth's state but she can't be worse than Iron Duke which was towed from Portsmouth to Devonport with a list due to taking on water while alongside in Portsmouth.

As you say if she get's a LIFEX it would be an easier start with parts already stripped but I thought the Greeks wanted the interim frigates to cover while the existing Hydras were upgraded and before the new vessels were built.

[Jdam]

HMS Monmouth is a bit of a stretch, what missiles would the Hellenic Navy use in the intern if they got these frigates, if I remember right Monmouth is the only Sea Wolf ship left. I think the most likely outcome is we give them the hull, save us costs on scrapping the ship.

Also are those ships GP or ASW?

[abc123]

"What's wrong?

RN having two frigates less?

[Caribbean]

One is already long gone - quietly decommissioned without even a ceremony

[donald_of_tokyo]

A comment.

LIFEX contract for "13" T23 was there (with Babcock). Now, HMS Monmouth are not going to get it, so 1-unit less.

1: What happens to that money?
- speculation: May be "absorbed" by the cost increase caused by "delay" of the works?

2: What happens to the new CMS system of BAE?
- speculation: not sure

3: What happens to the SeaCeptor system prepared for her?

This might be "reused" in the GFX contract of "T31 with CAMM"? It is Babcock (both T23 LIFEX and T31), MBDA-UK and HMG. ALL stakes holders are the same.
- the software system : one of the most expensive part (including the systems integration). But can be "reused" elsewhere easily, I guess? Increasing the license from "one-set" to "five-sets" will be just welcome for MBDA-UK.
- four Launch Management Systems (LMS boxes) : You need 5 LMS boxes for 5 T31. Only need to add "one more box".

- very much speculation: This could be the main reason, why there are only 12 CAMM on each T31?

4: What happens to the 4 diesel generators contracted with MTU for HMS Monmouth?
- speculation: might be too late to retrofit them into older hulls, so will be just used as a backup? or sold? (it is a commodity, kind of)

Just a comment.

[EDIT] Looking at the fact that HMS Monmouth was kept "un touched" for nearly 2 years, I guess "not LIFEXing her" was decided months ago (may be an year ago?). In such case, it could be coupled with the timing "T31 CAMM GFX" contract signed. Just a speculation, I agree. But, anyway, the SeaCeptor systems prepared for her found a place to live, thanks to T31 CAMM contract.

Note: T31 was NOT required to be equipped with Anti-Air-Missile. It was just optimally (not mandatory, or FitToReceive), in the T31 RFI.

[SD67]

I'd have thought that if Babcock do win the HN contract, Montrose would get her LIFEX in a Greek yard under Babcock supervision as part of the KT / gearing up for T31 build.

[Lord Jim]

At least Montrose can be refitted as the Greeks would want as they have a blank slate so to speak, whereas Montrose having been through Life-EX may mean the Greeks would like to keep her as is, giving them two separate ship sub classes. But they are only to be loaners after all and may help the Greek decide what they would like on their T-31s if they somehow choose it over the competition.

[Poiuytrewq]

Moved across.

I think we need to be careful not the mix roles...

Achieving a balanced fleet is of paramount importance and this is RN’s best chance for a generation to form a fleet that is balanced and efficient rather than just making the best of what survived the cuts.

Like the T32, the MRSS is, at this point, more jam tomorrow. I am very much not convinced that six Ellida type vessels is the best way to renew the UK’s Amphibious capability for the next 30 years. It may be the cheapest but certainly not the best IMO.

One of the reasons why I am not convinced about this direction of travel yet is because the FCF is still developing the concept of the LRG/LSG’s. Until the Royal Marines are sure of what capabilities and platforms are required for the coming decades then planning remains in flux. My prediction is the final analysis will show a vessel is required that looks very much like an HMS Ocean LPH (possibly LHD) albeit more modestly proportioned.

So effectively I am proposing replacing the MCM fleet around 2030 with six 130m Multi Role Logistics Vessels, scrap the T32 programme and continue building additional T31’s.

The Escort target could remain at 24 with a mix of T45/T26/T31 and the MRLV’s could take the strain with the MCM duties.

The LRG’s could be formed around the LPH’s, replenished by Joint Support Ships (built to replace the Waves) and escorted by T31’s that are fully kitted out as credible GP Frigates.

The overall fleet balance would be:
Royal Navy
2x CVF
2x LPH
6x T45
9x T26
9x T31
5x RB2
2x Multi Role Ocean Surveillance Ship


Royal Fleet Auxiliary
6x Multi Role Logistic Vessels (130m)
3x FSS
4x Tides
2x Joint Support Ships (175m, Wave replacement)

Personally I think this would be a much better direction. Current planning appears to be riddled with contradictions and an ongoing dependency to rely on Allied nations providing escorts to ensure the safety of the CSG/LRG/LSG’s.

IMO it’s time for a rethink.

[SD67]

Silly question for the experts - does the "Mothership" really need to be a frigate?

https://www.rivieramm.com/opinion/opini ... yups-31156

Currently a large number of North Sea Platform Supply Vessels are laid up due to the downturn in offshore gas.

[Caribbean]

2x Joint Support Ships (175m, Wave replacement)

They could do worse than look at a variation on HNoMS Maud for vessels to fill that role. More balanced in terms of solid stores/ liquids, than the Waves (40 TEU vs 8 TEU) considerable commonality with the Tides and built in support for alongside resupply of patrol boats and submarines (in our case, large unmanned submersibles).

As an aside and totally off topic, this is the first post that I've made on any forum, using a Pi/400, running Chrome as the browser. I'm amazed at how well it works! Gets a bit confusing with three mice (mouses?) on my desk, though

[Repulse]

Silly question for the experts - does the "Mothership" really need to be a frigate?

No, as long as you have escorts for them when they are needed to do anything with a threat level above a constabulary role.

[SD67]

Silly question for the experts - does the "Mothership" really need to be a frigate?

No, as long as you have escorts for them when they are needed to do anything with a threat level above a constabulary role.

And how different is that from a Hunt or Sandown?
Alternatively if the mothership is also one of the 24 escorts then it's always taking an escort away from the rest of the fleet.

[Poiuytrewq]

They could do worse than look at a variation on HNoMS Maud

I agree, a UK tweeked Maud would be a good option and the commonality with the Tides would be a bonus.

Best of luck with the mice!

[Tempest414]

Silly question for the experts - does the "Mothership" really need to be a frigate?

No, as long as you have escorts for them when they are needed to do anything with a threat level above a constabulary role.

And how different is that from a Hunt or Sandown?
Alternatively if the mothership is also one of the 24 escorts then it's always taking an escort away from the rest of the fleet.

First we need to look at a Hunt class it is built with naval warfare in mind and has a Type 2913 sonar , M-Cube CMS , 1 x 30mm , 2 x Miniguns , 3 x GPMG plus some have a 12.7mm HMG as well ( so more heavily armed than a B1 River class OPV )



So if we took up some second hand PSV's we would be getting some hard worked civvi ships that needed a lot of refitting and redesigning

[Repulse]

And how different is that from a Hunt or Sandown?
Alternatively if the mothership is also one of the 24 escorts then it's always taking an escort away from the rest of the fleet.

Not much apart from the close defence weapons Tempest414 refers to. But currently we have the requirement to provide the MCMs a safe zone in which to work, which requires escorts when operating in a non benign environment. If we go with a pimped PSV design, then nothing change - though you could argue it is worst as as the PSV needs to stands off whilst it’s off board systems do the work, the area that needs to be covered is bigger (potentially requiring even more escorts).

Having said that I do think a small PSV fleet (3-4) could be useful for UK waters which will have a layered defence and ability to work without escorts.

[Tempest414]

The Escort target could remain at 24 with a mix of T45/T26/T31 and the MRLV’s could take the strain with the MCM duties.

The LRG’s could be formed around the LPH’s, replenished by Joint Support Ships (built to replace the Waves) and escorted by T31’s that are fully kitted out as credible GP Frigates.

The overall fleet balance would be:
Royal Navy
2x CVF
2x LPH
6x T45
9x T26
9x T31
5x RB2
2x Multi Role Ocean Surveillance Ship




Royal Fleet Auxiliary
6x Multi Role Logistic Vessels (130m)
3x FSS
4x Tides
2x Joint Support Ships (175m, Wave replacement)

For me ( And yes this is fantasy but could be done ) I would look for
RN
2 x Carriers
2 x LHA's ( 220 x 40 meters with cat and trap for Mosquito UAV ops )
6 x T-45
8 x T-26
8 x T 31 ( full fat )
8 x MHPC ( 105 x 15 meters )
3 x River B'2
2 x MRS ships

RFA
4 x MRSS ( 160 x 28 meters )
3 x SSS
4 x Tide class
2 x Joint support ships