Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Lord Jim]

t is a whole lot more than a OPV it is more a kin to a heavy corvette with its Radar , CMS , gun fit , CAMM ,

Great so it should be able to defend itself whilst running away from anything nastier than a RHIB with a Machine Gun.

[Tempest414]

t is a whole lot more than a OPV it is more a kin to a heavy corvette with its Radar , CMS , gun fit , CAMM ,

Great so it should be able to defend itself whilst running away from anything nastier than a RHIB with a Machine Gun.

Above the water line to the same standard as a Type-23 as all it has is a 114 mm , 2 x 30mm and CAMM and yes it has more CAMM but if anything gets past the CAMM defence its game over at least type 31 has 57mm and 40mm air burst rounds

[Lord Jim]

But didn't the T-23 have Harpoon to shoot back with outside gun range?

[Poiuytrewq]

Adding CAMM to the T45's is fantastic news. Proper tangible progress and one of the first examples of where this spending uplift will be directed. Excellent.

Obviously the ABM capability is crucial now but I think this wil be addressed in time, it's a clear priority and would reduce the burden on the USN. The UK really has to be able to operate the CSG against all known threats anywhere in the world if required. Upgrading the T45's will enable RN to do so. Adding the T26's TLAM capability will just be icing on the cake.

However I think this also raises a few questions,

Clearly an increased threat level required extra CAMM to be fitted to the T45's to fully protect the CSG so what is this increased threat? Where in the world can it be found and which potentially hostile nations possess it.

I think most can guess what this threat looks like, it is hardly hidden.

Given this increased threat level is it still wise and prudent to introduce a class of the most underarmed Frigates in the world?

The simple answer is NO.

[Tempest414]

But didn't the T-23 have Harpoon to shoot back with outside gun range?

the big word here is did

[NickC]

Floence Parly, French Minister for the Armed Forces, tweeted they have successfully shot down a drone with a laser, no details given on size and speed of drone or at what range and weather conditions plus time taken to bring drone down. It has gone very quiet with no news for some time on progress with the RN proof of concept laser DragonFire.

Personally very skeptical on lasers effectiveness at sea level due to adverse atmospheric conditions on beam quality diffraction eg rain, smoke etc, time will tell. As a consequence US Army looking at a possible alternative to the conventional CW laser and carrying out basic research with an 'Ultrashort Pulsed Laser' which will use self-focusing filaments that propagate without diffraction, providing a possible solution to the negative impact turbulence has on beam quality compared to propagating a conventional CW laser system.

Ultrashort Pulsed Laser fire laser pulse widths in the range of femtoseconds (one millionth of one billionth of a second), mention the self-focusing filament require ginormous power, a terawatt, one million MW's, to deliver enough power/heat on target.

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[Enigmatically]

Does an increase missile threat mean that all the asymmetric threats have suddenly disappeared? No

Do we have the money to build all our ships capable of dealing with any threat? No

Does it therefore make sense to build a balanced force? Yes.

Is a type 31 capable of performing many of the duties the RN has to fulfill leaving the 45s and 26s to escort the carrier? Yes

[Lord Jim]

Given this increased threat level is it still wise and prudent to introduce a class of the most underarmed Frigates in the world?

The simple answer is NO.

Unless plans are already in motion behind closed doors to get the five ships in the water and then start to increase their capabilities incrementally, like adding the interim AShMs from the T-23s and the relevant updates to the CMS software, or increasing the loadout of Sea Ceptor AS examples.

[Poiuytrewq]

Does it therefore make sense to build a balanced force? Yes.

I am not arguing against building a balanced fleet but the T31's are a pretty substantial downgrade against the T23's in terms of armament.

Does that therefore mean that the current fleet is unbalanced? No.

Are the T23 GP's too heavily armed? Clearly not.

The thought process that spawned the T31 as currently planned is from a different era and now outdated. The threat level has increased and the world now looks very different. The T31 concept needs to be reviewed in terms of armament and increased funding needs to allocated to ensure they are fit for purpose from commissioning onwards.

[SW1]

I am not arguing against building a balanced fleet but the T31's are a pretty substantial downgrade against the T23's in terms of armament.

Short of decision on the next generation of anti ship missile are they? You could argue the gun and missile combination on type 31 is a better balance than that on type 23 particularly in more cluttered littoral environments.

[Ron5]

Is a type 31 capable of performing many of the duties the RN has to fulfill leaving the 45s and 26s to escort the carrier?

Is a Type 31 capable of performing any meaningful duties that cannot be performed by a River?

[Ron5]

I am not arguing against building a balanced fleet but the T31's are a pretty substantial downgrade against the T23's in terms of armament.

Short of decision on the next generation of anti ship missile are they? You could argue the gun and missile combination on type 31 is a better balance than that on type 23 particularly in more cluttered littoral environments.

The T31's have zero ASW capability. Zero.

[Ron5]

balanced force

That means shit. It's just spin to justify spending less money.

Compare with "drumbeat" as used to spin building ships at a fixed rate as being a good thing.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Does it therefore make sense to build a balanced force? Yes.

I am not arguing against building a balanced fleet but the T31's are a pretty substantial downgrade against the T23's in terms of armament.

Does that therefore mean that the current fleet is unbalanced? No.

Are the T23 GP's too heavily armed? Clearly not.

The thought process that spawned the T31 as currently planned is from a different era and now outdated. The threat level has increased and the world now looks very different. The T31 concept needs to be reviewed in terms of armament and increased funding needs to allocated to ensure they are fit for purpose from commissioning onwards.

From similar standing point, I rather go to different conclusion. No more money to spend on T31. It has its own place to live. Low threat patrolling tasks will never end. Emerging of new threat will not kill existing low but enduring threats. Let T31 concentrate on it.

If any money is there, RN must invest more on T45, T26, CVF, F35, and P-8 and P-7 = the high-end assets.
- T45 needs BMD missile (Aster 30 Blk1 NT?), I-SSGW (presumably 8 NSMs each), and increased CAMM (from planned 24 to 48). Upgraded GaN version of SAMPSON, upgraded SMART-L, and replace the two 30 mm guns with two 40 mm 3P guns. Also add CAPTAS4CI sonar. Add datalink to Wildcats.
- T26 needs to fill their Mk 41 VLS with new ASROC (x6), TLAM Blk5 (x18). Add 48 CAMM-ER in addition to 48 CAMM. Radar must be improved, may be fixed panel version of GaN radar based on ARTISAN or SAMPSON technology. Add I-SSGW (8 NSMs), replace the two 30 mm guns with two 40 mm 3P guns. Purchase USV-drones with shallow water ASW capability. Add SeaVenom to Merlin and also add some UAVs. What is more, 2 more hulls (to make it 10 hulls) at least is needed.
- CVF needs 24 CAMM each, and three 40 mm 3P guns, in addition to her three 20mm CIWS.
- F35 needs SPEAR3 ASM and Meteor AAM integrated. Also needs JSM and/or LRASM (even under wing) added.
- CV airwing needs good Air2Air refuel capability added, and AEW drones to replace Crowsnest.
- CV airwing needs additional Merlin HM2, at least may be 8 more.
- P-8 number must be increased from current 9 to at least 12, better be 16.
- P-7 number, regardless of AEW UAV, must be increased from 3 to at least 6.
(- and 7th Astute SSN, if possible (I'm afraid its too late))
All these are assets to be used in top-level threats. Tier-1 assets.

Only after these "wish lists", here comes
- T31 up arming. May be make it 24 CAMM with 8 I-SSGW, and a small hull sonar added. But even so, they are not for high-threat environment.
But also, with similar priority, I think
- UUV/USV ASW capability to be fully installed.


I think T31 is "not bad" for their task. T45, T26, CVF and F35 needs more push to counter increasing high-level threats. This is my point of view. Thanks.

[Ron5]

I think we may be surprised by the Type 26 batch II.

But then again, maybe not

[Enigmatically]

Is a type 31 capable of performing many of the duties the RN has to fulfill leaving the 45s and 26s to escort the carrier?

Is a Type 31 capable of performing any meaningful duties that cannot be performed by a River?

One has CAMM, the other not. I would say the answer to that is self evident

[SD67]

I am not arguing against building a balanced fleet but the T31's are a pretty substantial downgrade against the T23's in terms of armament.

Short of decision on the next generation of anti ship missile are they? You could argue the gun and missile combination on type 31 is a better balance than that on type 23 particularly in more cluttered littoral environments.

The T31's have zero ASW capability. Zero.

I thought they were to ship a HMS and a Wildcat (Stingray + Depth charges). Plus whatever UxV they can fit in the mission bay.

[Tinman]

I am not arguing against building a balanced fleet but the T31's are a pretty substantial downgrade against the T23's in terms of armament.

Short of decision on the next generation of anti ship missile are they? You could argue the gun and missile combination on type 31 is a better balance than that on type 23 particularly in more cluttered littoral environments.

The T31's have zero ASW capability. Zero.

Want to back that up?

[Tinman]

I think we may be surprised by the Type 26 batch II.

But then again, maybe not

We? Your American?

[dmereifield]

I think we may be surprised by the Type 26 batch II.

But then again, maybe not

We? Your American?

I think we may be surprised by the Type 26 batch II.

But then again, maybe not

We? Your American?

So he can't take an interest and be surprised if the MoD pay to get the most out of a platform?

[Lord Jim]

Want to back that up?

AS it stands it has no sonar either hull mounted or as a tail therefore cannot detect underwater targets. The Wildcat can only drop ASW Torpedoes or Depth Charges after being queued by off board systems, usually its mothership. Yes it may get the barest of ASW capability in say littoral areas with unmanned systems but it is limited in the size of these it can carry as it does really have a mission bay.

AS far as fleet upgrades are concerned, I am beginning to think the Interim AShM is becoming more important. Showing you are equipped to launch such a weapon in retaliation to being fired upon has a deterrence factor. At present, besides the Wildcat the RN's escort fleet has little offensive capability, out gunned by many nations at a lower tier. WE can defend ourselves but have difficulty shooting back/

[Poiuytrewq]

From similar standing point, I rather go to different conclusion.

Great summary Donald, I enjoyed reading that.

Your list of priorities is valid and I agree that if money was no object they should all happen but I simply place up-arming the T31 higher up the priority list.

One of the reasons for this is the T32's that we are promised will be proper 'escorts' capable of escorting the LRG's are simply jam tomorrow for now. In any case they won't be commissioned even on current plans within a decade, in effect another capability gap caused by a lack of funding. The T31's will have to fill the gap in the interim and they should be properly armed to do so.

To be clear what I am proposing is not a budget busting rise in capability or cost:

57mm
2x 40mm
24x CAMM
8x AShM
NS110
Hull Mounted Sonar
Captas 1 or 2

Clearly this would raise the cost of the T31's to a higher level but it would also genuinely strengthen and over time grow the size of the escort fleet. Waiting on the T32's is foolhardy and risky IMO.

If extra vessels are required for anti-piracy and anti-narcotic patrols just build more OPV's (with hangers) and if HADR is the priority then build more Bays or fast-track the MRSS programme.

There is now very little left of the original T31 concept as first prescribed. Underarming a class of Frigates to save money whilst risking the crews safety was always a nonsensical idea and it's time that decision is binned also.

[Tinman]

Want to back that up?

AS it stands it has no sonar either hull mounted or as a tail therefore cannot detect underwater targets. The Wildcat can only drop ASW Torpedoes or Depth Charges after being queued by off board systems, usually its mothership. Yes it may get the barest of ASW capability in say littoral areas with unmanned systems but it is limited in the size of these it can carry as it does really have a mission bay.

AS far as fleet upgrades are concerned, I am beginning to think the Interim AShM is becoming more important. Showing you are equipped to launch such a weapon in retaliation to being fired upon has a deterrence factor. At present, besides the Wildcat the RN's escort fleet has little offensive capability, out gunned by many nations at a lower tier. WE can defend ourselves but have difficulty shooting back/

Apart from the wildcat which is part of the ships offensive capabilities, the T31 is due into service when? Has a choice been made yet on the future ASM? Are we waiting for the USN to decide and see what follows?

[tomuk]

From similar standing point, I rather go to different conclusion.

Great summary Donald, I enjoyed reading that.

Your list of priorities is valid and I agree that if money was no object they should all happen but I simply place up-arming the T31 higher up the priority list.

One of the reasons for this is the T32's that we are promised will be proper 'escorts' capable of escorting the LRG's are simply jam tomorrow for now. In any case they won't be commissioned even on current plans within a decade, in effect another capability gap caused by a lack of funding. The T31's will have to fill the gap in the interim and they should be properly armed to do so.

To be clear what I am proposing is not a budget busting rise in capability or cost:

57mm
2x 40mm
24x CAMM
8x AShM
NS110
Hull Mounted Sonar
Captas 1 or 2

Clearly this would raise the cost of the T31's to a higher level but it would also genuinely strengthen and over time grow the size of the escort fleet. Waiting on the T32's is foolhardy and risky IMO.

If extra vessels are required for anti-piracy and anti-narcotic patrols just build more OPV's (with hangers) and if HADR is the priority then build more Bays or fast-track the MRSS programme.

There is now very little left of the original T31 concept as first prescribed. Underarming a class of Frigates to save money whilst risking the crews safety was always a nonsensical idea and it's time that decision is binned also.

So in summary you want T31 to have extra Hull Mounted Sonar, 12 CAMM, 8x AShM and a towed array.

[Poiuytrewq]

So in summary you want T31 to have extra Hull Mounted Sonar, 12 CAMM, 8x AShM and a towed array.

I don't think they will be credible without it.

An upgrade at a major refit is virtually inevitable but that would be totally against the concept of the T31.