Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Repulse
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

donald_of_tokyo, if the T31 is a Sloop, let’s call it that, and move on from discussions of it being able to carry more weapons and its size. Ultimately it is oversized and has a poor layout for the role. If they were of an Absalon design, it would be different but they are not. I just hope with the T32 they’ve realised they’ve messed up.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Repulse wrote:Ultimately it is oversized and has a poor layout for the role.
Is oversized a negative?

- Improved survivability
- Improved habitability for the crew
- Improved range
- Improved endurance
- Improved seakeeping qualities
- Merlin capable hanger
- Chinook capable Flightdeck
- Large growth margin potential
- Ample space for a sizeable EMF

Lots of advantages with an "oversized" hull what are the negatives?

I agree that the layout is sub-optimal but it could be easily rectified by creating meaningful access between the boat bays and the hanger and by adding a deck crane to access the under flight deck mission space.

Personally I think the reason these improvements aren't being made is to justify the T32's down the line.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Knowing how things are usually screwed up somewhere during a programme, the T-32 could end up being a T-31 with its ability to handle unmanned platforms greatly improved. It is supposed to be a MCV Mothership, with these replacing the Sandowns and Hunts, after all rather then a true escort according to many people. So same sensors and weapons load out but a large Mission Bay and reduced hanger and flight deck as it only need to operate Rotary UAVs. :D

Repulse
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Poiuytrewq wrote:Is oversized a negative?
Depends on what you want to do with that size. I’d have understood if the design had been more aligned towards amphibious support (a variant of the Absalon).

For example, things like RM Merlins etc would be natural for a ship of that type. But I see very little point putting a Merlin it at all above a modified Bay lily padding of Merlin capable flight decks like B2 Rivers. Without any real ASW capability, why on earth would you permanently base a ASW Merlin in it either?

Range, endurance and Sea Keeping shouldn’t be a priority either for what will be a forward based Littoral ship.

For me it’s twice the price and has twice the crew that a Multirole Sloop should be.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Caribbean wrote:My guess is that the older 8-missile control boxes will be changed for the newer 12-channel system, but pretty much everything else will be refurb'ed and moved over
A knowledgeable commentator on STRN, says in particular the old Sea Wolf tubes are being used to contain the CAMM launcher/transport containers, because they are toughened and contain built in hot exhaust outlets. The idea being if a CAMM explodes in a tube, the blast gets vented upward away from the ships interior. That also plays into the rumor/hint that it's the 'elf n safety lot that's insisting on the mushrooms.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

dmereifield wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Still no clarification of how many...and I'm still sticking to me guestimate of 24....
Believed to be" - why no official confirmation yet? I'm still thinking it will be more than 12
In your favor are the press reports from the time the T31 competition was being decided that said there were heated discussions between the Navy and the purse string holders about the number of launchers.

In my favor is the fact this is the UK :(

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Repulse wrote:donald_of_tokyo, if the T31 is a Sloop, let’s call it that, and move on from discussions of it being able to carry more weapons and its size. Ultimately it is oversized and has a poor layout for the role. If they were of an Absalon design, it would be different but they are not. I just hope with the T32 they’ve realised they’ve messed up.
But "sloop" is such a wimpy name. Worse than "corvette" which is too french. Worse than "patrol frigate" which no one knows what it means.

"Combat ship" hasn't caught on. "Littoral" now has terrible connotations (thanks USN).

Need a new name.

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote:
Repulse wrote:Ultimately it is oversized and has a poor layout for the role.
Is oversized a negative?

- Improved survivability
- Improved habitability for the crew
- Improved range
- Improved endurance
- Improved seakeeping qualities
- Merlin capable hanger
- Chinook capable Flightdeck
- Large growth margin potential
- Ample space for a sizeable EMF

Lots of advantages with an "oversized" hull what are the negatives?
Are you from Texas?

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote:donald_of_tokyo, if the T31 is a Sloop, let’s call it that, and move on from discussions of it being able to carry more weapons and its size. Ultimately it is oversized and has a poor layout for the role. If they were of an Absalon design, it would be different but they are not. I just hope with the T32 they’ve realised they’ve messed up.
Thanks. My understanding is as follows:

1: T31RFI was clearly looking for a 4000t/110m long light-frigate sized GP frigate, with typical heavy corvette level weapons. It would have looked "so-so well balanced", as a long-range corvette.

2: Babcock won the bid by 6000t/140m Arrowhead design, but armed as a typical heavy corvette. No problem here. But, as the hull "look like" apparently large and the ship "looks like" a full-fat frigate, many start blaming the ship is too under-armed. Natural and understandable reaction, but I think it is pointless, if we look at T31 RFI. T31 is NOT, have never been, a full fat frigate from the beginning.

3: But, with its large redundant space, T31 can be up-armed as a full-fat frigate, if money is there. But, this is completely independent story. Not much different from saying "let's convert T26 into AAW escort now". Doable, but only if there is a money.

4: On the other hand, Absalon vs Iver Huitfeldt is determined (to my understanding) from its speed. In RN standard, T31 is 29knot hull (even though much heavier IH-class touts 30+ knot speed in Danish navy standard). It is just the difference in definition of "top speed". (Sea State, weight, hot weather, and so on). On this regard, Absalon is touted to be 24knot capable in Danish Navy, which means it will be 23 knots or so in RN standard. As T31 RFI required 25+ knots, Absalon with only 2 diesel generator could not meet the RN requirement, even though its hull looks much suited for T31's tasks. Also, IH-based 29knot hull cannot be designed as Absalon, because the 4 diesel gen-sets and its intake/exhaust system takes significant space on its superstructure. More engine meant more weight, less CoG tolerance, more space, and more maintenance load.

If RN defined the top speed of T31 as 23+ knots, I guess Absalon would have been be the best candidate base hull in Babcock's bid.

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ETH
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ETH »

Tempest414 wrote:
ETH wrote:
Jdam wrote:"and fast attack craft" Interesting.
It's been known for a few years that MBDA aspire to give CAMM a surface-attack capability. It has not been live-tested to date.

didn't HMS Westminster carry out this test
Not that I’m aware of; this just mentions interception of Mirach drones:

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... sea-ceptor

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

ETH wrote:Not that I’m aware of; this just mentions interception of Mirach drones:
I would like to know at what height and speed this drone was flying given its size of 4 meters and top speed of 600+ mph if it was only doing 200 mph at 10 ft above the water it would suggest that CAMM would hit a speed boat doing 40 knts

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xav
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by xav »

I contacted MBDA UK to ask about the type of launcher (EXLS?) and how many VLS:

It will be installed in the MLS launcher (the same "mushrooms" as on the RN's T23 and T26). For the overall number you will need to ask the MOD.

Odd that no one can comment on how many VLS. It is like this number is still being "debated"

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

xav wrote:It is like this number is still being "debated"
If it is still being debated due to worsening threat levels across the globe then 12 CAMM is clearly not deemed sufficient by decision makers within RN.

A clear indication that the T31 is being armed down to a price point not armed to deal with the threats each vessel and crew may face during deployments.

Add another 12 launching tubes and the debate stops.

SW1
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Your assuming the discussion is a rounding increasing the number!

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

xav wrote:I contacted MBDA UK to ask about the type of launcher (EXLS?) and how many VLS:

It will be installed in the MLS launcher (the same "mushrooms" as on the RN's T23 and T26). For the overall number you will need to ask the MOD.

Odd that no one can comment on how many VLS. It is like this number is still being "debated"
Type 31 submissions were driven hard by the MoD's price cap. My hunch is that Babcock submitted a tender that included 12 launchers. The MoD has the option of adding more as GFE. So the ball is in MoD's court.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

RichardIC wrote:
xav wrote:I contacted MBDA UK to ask about the type of launcher (EXLS?) and how many VLS:

It will be installed in the MLS launcher (the same "mushrooms" as on the RN's T23 and T26). For the overall number you will need to ask the MOD.

Odd that no one can comment on how many VLS. It is like this number is still being "debated"
Type 31 submissions were driven hard by the MoD's price cap. My hunch is that Babcock submitted a tender that included 12 launchers. The MoD has the option of adding more as GFE. So the ball is in MoD's court.
Looks like we're on the same page on this one!

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

xav wrote:I contacted MBDA UK to ask about the type of launcher (EXLS?) and how many VLS:

It will be installed in the MLS launcher (the same "mushrooms" as on the RN's T23 and T26). For the overall number you will need to ask the MOD.

Odd that no one can comment on how many VLS. It is like this number is still being "debated"
Re. the T31 Sea Ceptor launchers, Italian sources mention the launchers (see below) in passing on info on the Albatros NG/CAMM-ER, would infer that its unlikely the EXLS would be used.

Albatros NG/CAMM-ER build which appears substantially Italian as one would expect as the Italian Government funded the development of the ER, based on an original 2011 agreement between MBDA UK and Italia which agreed to a joint initial investment in a GBAD missile, Ground Based Air Defence.

The ER variant retains the benefits of the CAMM’s soft vertical launch system, RF Seeker, warhead, active laser proximity fuze, actuators, IMU, electronics and power unit, two-way datalink and programmable systems. The ER variant is longer at 4.2m to incorporate the new Avio larger dia. 190mm additional booster/sustainer rocket motor stage, overall missile weight increased from 99 to 160kg. The aerodynamics/kinematics improved with strakes added to the central body plus small fins forward and a new better performing front ceramic seeker radome, all mods presumably to give more manoeuvre control when coasting following rocket burn out and losing speed so as to give improved ability to hit target at longer range quoted, over 40km, hinted that's a conservative figure?

The MBDA Italia's RF seeker designed and produced at Fusaro with its claimed excellent clutter rejection and resistance to jamming, no mention of resistance to decoys and all CAMM-ER to be assembled in Italy

The Albatros NG maritime launching system, MLS, said to be based on the T26 design, with same bolting mechanism, a simple/cheap shock mount and arranged in six cell canister modules (2×3), but extended in depth for the 4.2m longer missile, no mention if they needed to increase in dia. for the new first stage 190mm motor, modules are spaced for inspection and room for power, target reference data input and firing impulses to the missiles, the firing units are derived from MBDA Italia Aster hardware, each unit controls twelve missiles, one of the reasons T31 has twelve missiles?

The platform data link terminal, PDLT (also from Fusaro) for the two-way communication between the ship and the missile, ship can update target data to the missile whilst in flight and receive missile status information, uses four ~400 mm antennas, one per side on mast for 360° coverage (T23 used two turrets on upper deck each covering 180°). The below deck C2 is also Italia Aster derived module manages the Albatros NG system and interfaces with the ships CMS-Radar.

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Cooper
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Cooper »

Poiuytrewq wrote:Add another 12 launching tubes and the debate stops.
..add another 12 and suddenly the Type 31 order drops from 5 to 4.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

NickC wrote:The below deck C2 is also Italia Aster derived module manages the Albatros NG system and interfaces with the ships CMS-Radar.
This is a naval thread, but as ER is also used (I believe?) for airbase defence by the Italians... and on the other hand our land-based C2 module has been put together with a little bit of help from Saab (for conected radars) and Israeli industries , then I wonder if we will ever see mixed batteries - firing both varieties as per the situation at hand - on land?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Cooper wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:Add another 12 launching tubes and the debate stops.
..add another 12 and suddenly the Type 31 order drops from 5 to 4.
As said before any extra missiles come from the 19 billion pound missile budget

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Cooper wrote:.add another 12 and suddenly the Type 31 order drops from 5 to 4.
The counter-argument is that if another 12 tubes are not installed then perhaps a foreign power will cut the number of T31's from 5 to 4....along with its crew.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

xav wrote:I contacted MBDA UK to ask about the type of launcher (EXLS?) and how many VLS:

It will be installed in the MLS launcher (the same "mushrooms" as on the RN's T23 and T26). For the overall number you will need to ask the MOD.

Odd that no one can comment on how many VLS. It is like this number is still being "debated"
Thanks a lot ! As the contract between HMG and MBDA has just been signed, I understand the number has been fixed. Let's wait for another month or so, and if the Babcock CGI kept as 12 CAMM, I think it will be 12 CAMM.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Well they had better improve the Radar so the T-31 can get as much warning of the approach of hostile forces as possible, so they can get the hell out of Dodge! :D

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Lord Jim wrote:Well they had better improve the Radar so the T-31 can get as much warning of the approach of hostile forces as possible, so they can get the hell out of Dodge! :D
What's wrong with NS100?

SW1
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

I really don’t get the negativity around this ship type. I think it’s the most sensible procurement decision they’ve made since HMS ocean was built

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