Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

J. Tattersall

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by J. Tattersall »

NickC wrote:The 17km/9.2nm range claimed only when gun barrel at 45 degrees and doubt it could hit a barn door due to gun errors and dispersion.
Is it just me who thinks that hitting a barn door at 17km with an unguided projectile is actually quite impressive!?

NickC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

J. Tattersall wrote:
NickC wrote:The 17km/9.2nm range claimed only when gun barrel at 45 degrees and doubt it could hit a barn door due to gun errors and dispersion.
Is it just me who thinks that hitting a barn door at 17km with an unguided projectile is actually quite impressive!?
I think it would be a very, very big barn door and barrel needs to be at an actual 45 degrees, anything else range drops off :angel: .

If T31 came in contact with one of the ~60+ ~1,500t Chinese Type 056 corvettes (or equivalent) with its H/PJ-26 76mm main gun and C-803s AShM think the T31 best option would be to turn tail and steam away at max speed, it will be outranged by the 76mm and hope its soft kill or Sea Ceptors effective against the C-803s, T31 advantage is that it has ~5 knot higher speed than the Chinese corvette :angel:

As the original T31 MoD Bristol mission statement made clear the ship primary purpose is for "presence" not fighting (did post details/ref many moons ago, sorry to say hard drive crashed and lost the ref)

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

https://www.babcockinternational.com/wp ... 0.2020.pdf

The two blue boxes at the bottom of page 9 tell you what the Royal Navy are looking for in this platform. They’re looking, essentially, for a ship that is both capable and adaptable. Critically, it has to be affordable. Defence budgets, like all other government budgets, are always tight, and they wanted something that had the capability to be exported, and we’ll come back to that later. I won’t dwell on the box on the right, but that’s the operational requirements they’re after. This, essentially, is a general-purpose frigate. Its role is to take part in counter-drug operations, maritime security, and convoy support in the Gulf. So, it’s a generally-purpose ship. It’s not a specific anti- submarine warfare or air warfare ship.

Moving on to slide 12, I won’t dwell on this, but the slide’s intended to just give you a flavour of the capability. The ship has got a baseline mission system, but it has the ability to be modified to add other equipment should either the UK or an export customer want it. The ship has got quite a flexible combat system, three guns, surface-to-air missile system, a new 4D radar that the Royal Navy are really quite excited about, and a range of other capabilities. So, this is - it’s not intended to be a high-end war-fighting platform like Type 26, but neither is it the gunboat that some people have suggested. It’s at least as capable as the Type 23s that it replaces.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

the Chines 76mm gun has effective range of 10km and max of 15.5 km so if it turned in to a gun at 10 Km the type 31 would be bring both 57mm and 2 x 40mm to bear with higher rate of fire

As for the SSGW yes type 31 needs some but then again so do all the escorts in the RN

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote:The two blue boxes at the bottom of page 9
The link only goes as far as page 7?
SW1 wrote:Critically, it has to be affordable
In other words cheap, because it has to be as the programme budget is insufficient to procure a proper Frigate.
SW1 wrote: Its role is to take part in counter-drug operations, maritime security, and convoy support in the Gulf.
This is exactly why the rationale for the T31 as precribed no longer exists.....if it ever did.

- Counter-drug operations do not require Frigates. The Holland class are perfect for anti-narcotic deployments.

- Maritime security. Is this another way of saying anti-piracy? An OPV with a helicopter and a modest EMF is more than enough for maritime security operations. Frigates are not necessary.

- Convoy support in the Gulf. I agree this most certainly is the job for a Frigate but why is RN procuring an entire class to do a pretty niche task in the Gulf? Adding extra CAMM, a hull mounted sonar and a ASuW capability would just make the T31 better.
SW1 wrote:It’s at least as capable as the Type 23s that it replaces.
Not even close, why do you keep insisting that it is?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote:
SW1 wrote:The two blue boxes at the bottom of page 9
The link only goes as far as page 7?
SW1 wrote:Critically, it has to be affordable
In other words cheap, because it has to be as the programme budget is insufficient to procure a proper Frigate.
SW1 wrote: Its role is to take part in counter-drug operations, maritime security, and convoy support in the Gulf.
This is exactly why the rationale for the T31 as precribed no longer exists.....if it ever did.

- Counter-drug operations do not require Frigates. The Holland class are perfect for anti-narcotic deployments.

- Maritime security. Is this another way of saying anti-piracy? An OPV with a helicopter and a modest EMF is more than enough for maritime security operations. Frigates are not necessary.

- Convoy support in the Gulf. I agree this most certainly is the job for a Frigate but why is RN procuring an entire class to do a pretty niche task in the Gulf? Adding extra CAMM, a hull mounted sonar and a ASuW capability would just make the T31 better.
SW1 wrote:It’s at least as capable as the Type 23s that it replaces.
Not even close, why do you keep insisting that it is?
Sorry all that was in the link

Affordable isn’t a dirty word. It means programs can be delivered without having to delay them because the budget it there for them, you don’t have to reduce quantity and you don’t have to rob other programs or the supt budgets because you attempted to buy something you know you don’t have the budget for.

I’m not insisting anything it’s what the people running the program state

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:https://www.babcockinternational.com/wp ... 0.2020.pdf

The two blue boxes at the bottom of page 9 tell you what the Royal Navy are looking for in this platform. They’re looking, essentially, for a ship that is both capable and adaptable. Critically, it has to be affordable. Defence budgets, like all other government budgets, are always tight, and they wanted something that had the capability to be exported, and we’ll come back to that later. I won’t dwell on the box on the right, but that’s the operational requirements they’re after. This, essentially, is a general-purpose frigate. Its role is to take part in counter-drug operations, maritime security, and convoy support in the Gulf. So, it’s a generally-purpose ship. It’s not a specific anti- submarine warfare or air warfare ship.

Moving on to slide 12, I won’t dwell on this, but the slide’s intended to just give you a flavour of the capability. The ship has got a baseline mission system, but it has the ability to be modified to add other equipment should either the UK or an export customer want it. The ship has got quite a flexible combat system, three guns, surface-to-air missile system, a new 4D radar that the Royal Navy are really quite excited about, and a range of other capabilities. So, this is - it’s not intended to be a high-end war-fighting platform like Type 26, but neither is it the gunboat that some people have suggested. It’s at least as capable as the Type 23s that it replaces.
So constabulary and flag waving. Nothing new there.

At least as capable as the T23 GP's? No.

Also in the speech he mentioned using commercial off the shelf components to save money. Good luck with that.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:Affordable isn’t a dirty word. It means programs can be delivered without having to delay them because the budget it there for them, you don’t have to reduce quantity and you don’t have to rob other programs or the supt budgets because you attempted to buy something you know you don’t have the budget for
Sticking to a budget is indeed a good thing. Setting a budget in the complete absence of any capability and associated costing, and by some dipshit in the Treasury, is utterly absurd.

Ford used to say you can get the model T in any color as long as it was black.

George Osborne told the navy they could have 5 warships with any capability they wanted as long as it cost no more that 250 million. The first number (5) was pure politics, the second number he pulled out of his large ass.

Boot licker FSL Adm Jones went along with it. I doubt if his predecessor or successor would have.
SW1 wrote: I’m not insisting anything it’s what the people running the program state
No, this is the shipbuilder who was given the contract on the basis of a national shipbuilding strategy written by one of his predecessors and commissioned by same dipshit as mentioned above. Of course his product is marvelous and won against stiff opposition (eyes roll).

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

SW1 wrote:Affordable isn’t a dirty word. It means programs can be delivered without having to delay them because the budget it there for them, you don’t have to reduce quantity and you don’t have to rob other programs or the supt budgets because you attempted to buy something you know you don’t have the budget for.
We would have been better only buying three of four vessels with a higher level of capability. As was pointed out, the T-31 has really been design as a Gulf escort when it boils down to it with all its other possible roles tacked on to make it sound better than it actually is. For anything less than Gulf escort work it is too big and expensive, for anything more it is under equipped.

Its only saving grace is that it could be enhanced if the Royal Navy decided to and money were available. This is why some argue that the T-32 should be canned and both money spent on the T-31s and a simpler platform developed as a "Mothership" for unmanned platforms.

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Poiuytrewq wrote:SW1 wrote:
The two blue boxes at the bottom of page 9
The link only goes as far as page 7?
He meant slide 9
RN T31 Requirements
Platform that is modular, scalable, open and agile platform with ability
to augment capabilities through life.
› Capability
› Adaptability for future capability upgrades
› Exportability
› Affordable
› Re-rolling flexibility
RN Operational Requirements
› Conduct Maritime Interdiction Operations
› Maintain Situational Awareness
› Deliver first response HADRO
› Provide sustained forward presence
› Deploy & Operate Globally
› Adaptable for future capability upgrades
› Information interoperability
Poiuytrewq wrote:This is exactly why the rationale for the T31 as prescribed no longer exists.....if it ever did.

- Counter-drug operations do not require Frigates. The Holland class are perfect for anti-narcotic deployments.

- Maritime security. Is this another way of saying anti-piracy? An OPV with a helicopter and a modest EMF is more than enough for maritime security operations. Frigates are not necessary.

- Convoy support in the Gulf. I agree this most certainly is the job for a Frigate but why is RN procuring an entire class to do a pretty niche task in the Gulf? Adding extra CAMM, a hull mounted sonar and a ASuW capability would just make the T31 better.
The two most important lines in the transcript are.
Yeah, the platform might get modified, but that will happen after it’s been handed over by us.
and
We picked a bigger ship because we knew it was a design that customer wanted
So Poiuytrewq doesn't like it but the Royal Navy does.

Thank you, good night.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

RichardIC wrote:The two most important lines in the transcript are.

Yeah, the platform might get modified, but that will happen after it’s been handed over by us.


and

We picked a bigger ship because we knew it was a design that customer wanted
The most important lines??

The first seems to admit the ship needs upgrading. Certainly recognizes the wave of criticism that the ship is poorly configured.

The second refers to the RN telling Babcock's their initial offering (arrowhead 120) was unacceptable and Babcock's had better go find something better to win the rigged competition. Hence the switch of horses to A140 midstream.

IMO the only important lines were the ones that said the project was still on schedule and budget. Excellent news if true. But they all kinda say that at this stage to keep the money coming in.

P.S. Posting a link to the slides would be helpful.

P.P.S. Good night :eh:

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Ron5 wrote:The most important lines??
Yes
Ron5 wrote:The first seems to admit the ship needs upgrading.
Yes
Ron5 wrote:P.S. Posting a link to the slides would be helpful.
They're already on here
https://www.babcockinternational.com/wp ... 0.2020.pdf

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

Ron5 wrote:
SW1 wrote:https://www.babcockinternational.com/wp ... 0.2020.pdf

The two blue boxes at the bottom of page 9 tell you what the Royal Navy are looking for in this platform. They’re looking, essentially, for a ship that is both capable and adaptable. Critically, it has to be affordable. Defence budgets, like all other government budgets, are always tight, and they wanted something that had the capability to be exported, and we’ll come back to that later. I won’t dwell on the box on the right, but that’s the operational requirements they’re after. This, essentially, is a general-purpose frigate. Its role is to take part in counter-drug operations, maritime security, and convoy support in the Gulf. So, it’s a generally-purpose ship. It’s not a specific anti- submarine warfare or air warfare ship.

Moving on to slide 12, I won’t dwell on this, but the slide’s intended to just give you a flavour of the capability. The ship has got a baseline mission system, but it has the ability to be modified to add other equipment should either the UK or an export customer want it. The ship has got quite a flexible combat system, three guns, surface-to-air missile system, a new 4D radar that the Royal Navy are really quite excited about, and a range of other capabilities. So, this is - it’s not intended to be a high-end war-fighting platform like Type 26, but neither is it the gunboat that some people have suggested. It’s at least as capable as the Type 23s that it replaces.
So constabulary and flag waving. Nothing new there.

At least as capable as the T23 GP's? No.

Also in the speech he mentioned using commercial off the shelf components to save money. Good luck with that.
Constabulary? - Gulf of Hormuz is not exactly constabulary.

Depending on how you look at it, it's either a Type 21 with longer legs, a Super-Khareef or an Anglo-Danish Lafayette. Not quite T23 but alot more than an OPV with and plenty of growth margin. Though I'd have liked a bigger main gun

And commercial off the shelf components - well the all diesel propulsion system for one seems to be working pretty well.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Ron5 wrote:
RichardIC wrote:The two most important lines in the transcript are.

Yeah, the platform might get modified, but that will happen after it’s been handed over by us.


and

We picked a bigger ship because we knew it was a design that customer wanted
The most important lines??

The first seems to admit the ship needs upgrading. Certainly recognizes the wave of criticism that the ship is poorly configured.

The second refers to the RN telling Babcock's their initial offering (arrowhead 120) was unacceptable and Babcock's had better go find something better to win the rigged competition. Hence the switch of horses to A140 midstream.

IMO the only important lines were the ones that said the project was still on schedule and budget. Excellent news if true. But they all kinda say that at this stage to keep the money coming in.

P.S. Posting a link to the slides would be helpful.

P.P.S. Good night :eh:
Or they recognize they have got the maximum they could out of the 250 million per ship and have left the RN in a good place to build on it

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Tempest414 wrote:Or they recognize they have got the maximum they could out of the 250 million per ship and have left the RN in a good place to build on it
Precisely.

That was effectively acknowledged when they suspended the original tendering process and then restarted it after Govt agreed to exclude the cost of GFE including Sea Ceptor.

It was also acknowledged when Babcock pitched in with a totally left-field offering that the competition clearly couldn't live with (because it's what the RN asked for).

Babcock are supplying the best they can deliver at the stated price point. What comes after that is down to Govt/MoD/RN.

We'll get the usual dreary remarks about fitted for but not with. But at least this gives future options, and it's better to have options than not have options.

Is there a plan to implement those options??? We'll have to wait.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote:Affordable isn’t a dirty word
Completely agree but trying to build anything with an insufficient budget leads to ever greater compromises.

In the case of Frigates, cost cutting costs lives. Politicians conveniently tend to forget that fact until the shooting starts by which time it's too late to do anything about it. All the hand wringing, wailing and finger pointing doesn't help, followed by the inevitable enquiries, followed by lessons learned, and on and on and on....

Forget the political bluster and the 'this time it will be different' statements, cutting costs will go on costing lives for infinitum.

Having said that, the T31 programme has achieved some notable victories and if Babcock can deliver five A140's for the allotted price in the scheduled timescale I will be full of admiration and pleasantly surprised. Time will tell.

NOW is the time to sort the escort shortage for a generation. The T31 is nearly there, all that is needed now is a push over the line....and an extra £50m per hull.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Playing Devil's advocate but we are complaining about how few CAMM the T-31 is carrying but how many ASTER do the French PDI or Italian full capability PPA carry? Those platforms also appear to have pretty much been built to be the smallest platform able to carry out the roles intended for them with limited growth potential, though I could be wrong, obviously. At least the T-31 has potential it just needs the Royal Navy to find the money to realise it together with the will to do so.

Also remember CAMM is a world class point defence weapon system both on land and at sea. It can deal with swarm attacks from supersonic weapons even in its simplest installation. It can work with any radar, is easily installed on almost any ship because of it cold launch. Add to this its 60% commonality with CAMM-ER/Albatross-NG and able to use the same control software and hardware and finally that the latter items also have 75% commonality with those used by PAMMS/SAMP-T. This is why the installation of CAMM on the T-45 is such a good move and Why it is easy for teh Italian Navy to install CAMM-ER on the intermediate version of the PPA easily. It also shows how the UK and Italy could easily assemble a very effective layered GBADS for use on land, if they wished, though Italy is already two thirds of the way there having already adopted SAMP-T and CAMM-ER.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote:
SW1 wrote:Affordable isn’t a dirty word
Completely agree but trying to build anything with an insufficient budget leads to ever greater compromises.

In the case of Frigates, cost cutting costs lives. Politicians conveniently tend to forget that fact until the shooting starts by which time it's too late to do anything about it. All the hand wringing, wailing and finger pointing doesn't help, followed by the inevitable enquiries, followed by lessons learned, and on and on and on....

Forget the political bluster and the 'this time it will be different' statements, cutting costs will go on costing lives for infinitum.

Having said that, the T31 programme has achieved some notable victories and if Babcock can deliver five A140's for the allotted price in the scheduled timescale I will be full of admiration and pleasantly surprised. Time will tell.

NOW is the time to sort the escort shortage for a generation. The T31 is nearly there, all that is needed now is a push over the line....and an extra £50m per hull.
Which is not what they’ve done here. They’ve specifically selected a fully compliant warship, not a civilian vessel, not an offshore patrol vessel but a vessel that meets all the stability and damage control requirements laid down for a warship. Where they have saved money is selecting a fully mature vessel and systems that go in it so they haven’t had to develop anything new, but invest in integrating it as a package. Hopefully something we do more off.

They have also limited persistence prior to the need to reload, which they have deemed acceptable because it isn’t supposed to be involved in high end conflict on it own. But that doesn’t stop it being a warship or being able to protect itself.

if your wanting more there is an opportunity cost because to spend more on this means spending less on something else and you could go over how that could of been achieved with what has been spent on the escort fleet but that isn’t for this thread.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

FWIW i did ask the NAO if the Type 31e contract was awarded for the target price of £250 million per ship excluding the GFA, they replied to my question as a request under the FOI Act and said NO.

"We can confirm that we hold information in scope of your request information on the contract cost per Type 31e ship. However, we consider this information to be exempt from disclosure under sections 33 (Public audit functions) and 43 (Commercial interests). Please see Annex B."

So the actual cost of the Babcock contract for the T31s remains an unknown, guessing anywhere between £1250 million plus £90 million GFA and the MoD current T31 project forecast cost to completion of £1,986 million for the five ships. What we can say is that the cost to the RN is £400 million per ship, does anyone know what that the project cost includes, if anything, over and above Babcock's contract price.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote:Or they recognize they have got the maximum they could out of the 250 million per ship and have left the RN in a good place to build on it
And left the rest of the world to recognize that the budget was insufficient to build a credible frigate.

And why do I say that? Because every single T31 configuration offered to export customers is more capable than the RN version. Nobody wants the RN standard.

And T31 supporters here, like yourself, cling to the notion that the T31 is an empty canvass and the RN has secret plans and a secret budget to add all the missing capability. Plans that will spring into action as soon as the ships are out of the shipbuilders hands.

Yeah right :roll:

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

RichardIC wrote:That was effectively acknowledged when they suspended the original tendering process and then restarted it after Govt agreed to exclude the cost of GFE including Sea Ceptor.
That's not quite correct. they suspended the competition because they only had two bidders: Babcocks and Bae. For a competition that Sir John Parker said would have the world rushing to the UK's door.

So they arm twisted the Germans arm to make a third nonsensical bid (didn't even have a shipyard signed up), to make it look a tad more respectable.

The GFX discussions were separate.

Here's the preamble to the restated competition..
Short description of the contract: As announced in the National Shipbuilding Strategy (“NSbS”) the Ministry of Defence (“MOD”) is seeking to procure five (5) new General Purpose Frigates for the Royal Navy (“RN”) for a total cost not to exceed £1.25 billion inclusive of Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). These General Purpose Frigates have been denoted the Type 31e (T31e).

The T31e will provide an enduring and continuous worldwide maritime security presence in forward operating areas and releasing other, more complex warships to their primary roles. The T31e will carry out maritime security and interdiction tasks, such as security patrols, escort duties, counter drugs and counter piracy. It will also carry out defence engagement activities, such as port visits and official entertainment, demonstrations of military capability and participation in allied training exercises. It must be ready to respond to emergent events, such as natural disasters or evacuation of non-combatants and will routinely carry specialist emergency relief stores in certain operating areas.

The T31e design will need to be adaptable, providing evolution paths for future capability insertion to enable growth of the destroyer and frigate numbers into the 2030s, and to address export customers’ needs. The Authority previously commenced a competition for this requirement in February 2018 with the publication of Contract Notice reference TKR-2018222-DCB-11953582. Subsequently the Authority elected to stop this procurement due to inadequate competition prior to awarding Competitive Design Phase (CDP) contracts.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Playing Devil's advocate but we are complaining about how few CAMM the T-31 is carrying but how many ASTER do the French PDI or Italian full capability PPA carry? Those platforms also appear to have pretty much been built to be the smallest platform able to carry out the roles intended for them with limited growth potential, though I could be wrong, obviously. At least the T-31 has potential it just needs the Royal Navy to find the money to realise it together with the will to do so.

Also remember CAMM is a world class point defence weapon system both on land and at sea. It can deal with swarm attacks from supersonic weapons even in its simplest installation. It can work with any radar, is easily installed on almost any ship because of it cold launch. Add to this its 60% commonality with CAMM-ER/Albatross-NG and able to use the same control software and hardware and finally that the latter items also have 75% commonality with those used by PAMMS/SAMP-T. This is why the installation of CAMM on the T-45 is such a good move and Why it is easy for teh Italian Navy to install CAMM-ER on the intermediate version of the PPA easily. It also shows how the UK and Italy could easily assemble a very effective layered GBADS for use on land, if they wished, though Italy is already two thirds of the way there having already adopted SAMP-T and CAMM-ER.
The T31 CAMM fit is 12 tubes and a bargain basement radar.

In comparison, the Sky Sabre British Army system has 8 tubes that can accept CAMM-ER on a single truck and a SAAB Giraffe radar on another one. Rafael supplies the CMS mounted on a 3rd truck.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:They’ve specifically selected a fully compliant warship, not a civilian vessel, not an offshore patrol vessel but a vessel that meets all the stability and damage control requirements laid down for a warship.
You clearly do not have the faintest idea how many different standards there are for warship building. Not a clue. To say this design meets them all is rubbish.

The question might be does the design fully meet the RN's standards? I wonder if it does. I doubt it.

PS it occurs to me that you're making such an absurd statement to amuse yourself with the reactions. If so, knock it off.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:They have also limited persistence prior to the need to reload, which they have deemed acceptable because it isn’t supposed to be involved in high end conflict on it own.
Stop making shit up, the MoD/RN has clearly stated they are not supposed to be involved in any war fighting period.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Ron5 wrote:PS it occurs to me that you're making such an absurd statement to amuse yourself with the reactions. If so, knock it off.
Ditto ;)
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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