Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[Ron5]

Think i must be a mystique as forecast above answer yesterday that MoD would hide behind the excuse that its 'commercially sensitive' in refusing to give any breakdown of the figures

I think English may be your second language and I'd rather see the actual reply from NOA rather than accepting your word.

[Ron5]

I don't think that's right. The chronology as I understand it is

2010 : 4 year Design contract back in 2010 - 127£ million
2015 : Demonstration contract : 859£ million
2016 : Long lead item contract for first 3 : 470£ million
2017 : Build contract for first 3 : 3.6£ billion

These were all separately announced and signed. If you have links please post them and I'll stand corrected.

If you look back to the June 4 2017 comment in this forum, you can find...

Just seen the tweet from Geof Searle, Type 26 Programme Director that confirms the £3.7bnincludes the previous long-lead costs.
""

The tweet itself is not remaining, but I remember the T26 Program Director said so. When I read it, I remember it clearly stated that it included the "Long lead item" (the 2016's 470£ million). BUT, it is NOT clear if it includes others, the 2010 £127M and 2015 £859M. Do anybody know/remember it?

Logically Hunter is 2.2 £ billion per unit - that's public information - is T26 really that much cheaper? I doubt it.

Yes and no. No one knows what is included in the 2.2 £ billion per unit on average (RAN) nor £3.7B in total for the initial 3 hulls (RN).

But we do know that the French FREMM average cost is cheaper than RN's T26's. So RN cost is also not a lie. I understand just definition differs. For example, we all know RN cost does NOT include the ammo. How about RAN (and RCN?). RCN clearly states their labor cost is 20-40% higher than "the original case" because of their ship building industries inefficiency. But, this does not explain the almost doubling cost. So, I agree your "doubt" is reasonable. But, I just understand it is just a matter of definition. As the definition is "similar", comparing T26 vs T31 will be meaningful, but comparing RN T26 vs RAN T26 cost will be not easy.

@Donald-san your frustration trying to establish a type 26 cost shines through your comments.

All I can offer is that Bae were very much determined to complete the whole ship digital design before commencing build. Presumably to avoid the kind of problems that have dogged them in the past. This would skew spending very much to the front end of the process.

[SD67]

The tweet itself is not remaining, but I remember the T26 Program Director said so. When I read it, I remember it clearly stated that it included the "Long lead item" (the 2016's 470£ million). BUT, it is NOT clear if it includes others, the 2010 £127M and 2015 £859M. Do anybody know/remember it?
Logically Hunter is 2.2 £ billion per unit - that's public information - is T26 really that much cheaper? I doubt it.
Yes and no. No one knows what is included in the 2.2 £ billion per unit on average (RAN) nor £3.7B in total for the initial 3 hulls (RN)

I think we can pretty safely guesstimate that a build phase contract signed in 2017 does not incorporate a demonstration phase contract signed 3-4 years earlier. Why would it? Why would a cabinet minister want previous paid for spending to come out of his budget today? Long lead items are a different matter, yes I could imagine they're included in the 3.7 as they'd be delivered as part of that phase.

I bet program budget of T26 to date is 127 + 859 + 3700. ie 1562 per unit. No overlap whatsoever with the 400 per unit of T31. You could triple the number of CAAM and bolt 8 SSMs to the deck and there'd still be no overlap - you'd be up to 450, tops. A type 31 is never ever going to cost as much as a type 26. That's why Treasury signed it off.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I bet program budget of T26 to date is 127 + 859 + 3700. ie 1562 per unit. No overlap whatsoever with the 400 per unit of T31. You could triple the number of CAAM and bolt 8 SSMs to the deck and there'd still be no overlap - you'd be up to 450, tops. A type 31 is never ever going to cost as much as a type 26. That's why Treasury signed it off.

I have no problem with your argument. What was the problem?? T31 is much cheap and much less capable than T26. That's it. See the T31 RFI. Its requirement is very very simple. No surprise the FCS of 57/40 mm guns even NOT have radars, just EO.

By the way, I agree with you that, on T31, adding missile to 24 will be one of the cheapest capability enhancement. It has SeaCeptor software/system integrated to its CMS. What is needed is a second Launch Management System and 12 more launchers. (Systems integration is much much expensive than the equipment themselves, and for SeaCeptor, most of the Systems integration is already done.). On I-SSWG, I like NSM. But with its 2-way datalink and land-attack capability, its control system is surely much complex than that of Harpoon. Even so, it will be not "killing". Problem is, how can we find the £200-400M more money to actually make it happen?

# Of course, we can stop Flagship and can re-use it for up-arming T31 !!

[SD67]

Agreed.

But T31 is not replacing T26 - they're replacing 5 x Seawolf equipped T23 GP, two of which are effectively out of commission already.

The money for upgrades becomes available in the early 2030s when Successor winds down. It's a fair compromise until then as a presence / patrol frigate and worst case could be uparmed in a hurry if things hot up.

[SD67]

Of course, we can stop Flagship and can re-use it for up-arming T31 !!

You realise flag ship is really a giant stealth Qship with Lasers concealed in the Gin palace

[donald_of_tokyo]

But T31 is not replacing T26 - they're replacing 5 x Seawolf equipped T23 GP, two of which are effectively out of commission already.
The money for upgrades becomes available in the early 2030s when Successor winds down. It's a fair compromise until then as a presence / patrol frigate and worst case could be uparmed in a hurry if things hot up.

Thanks. In 2030s, the main "threat" will be Tempest. Its development, as well as its production. But, going out of Successor is important for all three services. Let's hope the program goes well without major cost overrun anymore...

You realise flag ship is really a giant stealth Qship with Lasers concealed in the Gin palace

Interesting.
Flag ship has a price tag of £200M. As T31 is adding 12 CAMM and SeaCeptor system to the 5 T31s with £90M total (although some equipments shall be re-used from decommissioning T23?), £200M will enable all 5 T31s to carry 24 CAMM, and something more. This is what I meant.

Thanks.

[NickC]

Think i must be a mystique as forecast above answer yesterday that MoD would hide behind the excuse that its 'commercially sensitive' in refusing to give any breakdown of the figures

I think English may be your second language and I'd rather see the actual reply from NOA rather than accepting your word.

Hi Ron as my best mate on the forum and the resident Mr Nasty on occasions, your a real Jekyll & Hyde character, you have called me a troll etc, think I will make an exception with you and not post the NAO email, if anyone else asks I will.

As you doubt my word you could get your fat finger out and make yourself useful and email NAO directly and see if you could hopefully add to our knowledge on the T31

PS Thought I would add in few English colloquiums

PPS As one poster described you on STRN "It just makes me wonder how Ron5 thinks being abrasive and nasty is some sort of virtue. For what reason? He is the same across a few forums not just here"

[Ron5]

Think i must be a mystique as forecast above answer yesterday that MoD would hide behind the excuse that its 'commercially sensitive' in refusing to give any breakdown of the figures

I think English may be your second language and I'd rather see the actual reply from NOA rather than accepting your word.

Hi Ron as my best mate on the forum and the resident Mr Nasty on occasions, your a real Jekyll & Hyde character, you have called me a troll etc, think I will make an exception with you and not post the NAO email, if anyone else asks I will.

As you doubt my word you could get your fat finger out and make yourself useful and email NAO directly and see if you could hopefully add to our knowledge on the T31

PS Thought I would add in few English colloquiums

PPS As one poster described you on STRN "It just makes me wonder how Ron5 thinks being abrasive and nasty is some sort of virtue. For what reason? He is the same across a few forums not just here"

Correction: I have accurately described you as exhibiting troll like behavior. You do, frequently. I have not called you a troll.

[NickC]

Think i must be a mystique as forecast above answer yesterday that MoD would hide behind the excuse that its 'commercially sensitive' in refusing to give any breakdown of the figures

I think English may be your second language and I'd rather see the actual reply from NOA rather than accepting your word.

Hi Ron as my best mate on the forum and the resident Mr Nasty on occasions, your a real Jekyll & Hyde character, you have called me a troll etc, think I will make an exception with you and not post the NAO email, if anyone else asks I will.

As you doubt my word you could get your fat finger out and make yourself useful and email NAO directly and see if you could hopefully add to our knowledge on the T31

PS Thought I would add in few English colloquiums

PPS As one poster described you on STRN "It just makes me wonder how Ron5 thinks being abrasive and nasty is some sort of virtue. For what reason? He is the same across a few forums not just here"

Correction: I have accurately described you as exhibiting troll like behavior. You do, frequently. I have not called you a troll.

Very odd as you are the only one to come to that conclusion, but I'll just repeat the other posters comment on you "being abrasive and nasty is some sort of virtue", have in the past mentioned your behavior to a Doctor friend of mine, think it might be the time to pass on his thoughts, he really thinks it would be best for your own mental wellbeing to make an appointment with a psychologist , hoping you make a full recovery

[SD67]

My .02 euro worth :

I reckon Ron's abrasiveness is one of the things that keeps me coming back to this site. Almost like an American Geoff Boycott. That type 31 he couldn't get my grandmother out! But then I'm married to a US mid west redneck so I may be biased

[Jdam]

Updated Type 31 configuration with 24 Sea Ceptor missiles?

[Timmymagic]

Updated Type 31 configuration with 24 Sea Ceptor missiles?

Think that could be the case...and with i-SSGW onboard as well (which is where it will end up eventually). These models are not cheap at all, suspect we may have seen the proper configuration of the T31 for the first time. Which should allay a lot of concerns...but...is it me or do the SSM's look a little 'wobbly'... suspect they're an addition in the model pack that can be added at a trade show to show a more upgunned version if necessary for the audience.

So...I think the 24 Sea Ceptor installation could be correct, but the SSM's are an addition just for this show, albeit they are showing what T31 will eventually look like in service, not its introduction.

[Tempest414]

I think it is the 2019 model in the image it also has a 127mm main gun we know the 57mm has been ordered However if this was what we got mark me down as happy

[RichardIC]

It's part of the sales pitch to Greece so wouldn't read anymore into it than that.

[Jensy]

I think it is the 2019 model in the image it also has a 127mm main gun we know the 57mm has been ordered However if this was what we got mark me down as happy

Indeed. I daresay a few pages/years back this exact same model/configuration encouraged an excited belief that we might be looking at the 76mm from (now) Leonardo.

With a rather distinct silence over the exact specifications of the 'Active Class', expect the worst and hope to be to be pleasantly surprised.

[Ron5]

With a rather distinct silence over the exact specifications of the 'Active Class', expect the worst and hope to be to be pleasantly surprised.

Pleeeeze don't go there again. The spec is known.

PS "Inspiration" class.

[Jensy]

"Inspiration" class.

As soon as they build a 6th of class named HMS Inspiration I'll be happy to....

That said, what's the point of using a Type system if it's not the primary form of identification/grouping? Might as well just go back to pre-1950s named classes.

[Ron5]

"Inspiration" class.

As soon as they build a 6th of class named HMS Inspiration I'll be happy to....

That said, what's the point of using a Type system if it's not the primary form of identification/grouping? Might as well just go back to pre-1950s named classes.

I fully agree on both counts

[SKB]

[NickC]

The 17km/9.2nm range claimed only when gun barrel at 45 degrees and doubt it could hit a barn door due to gun errors and dispersion.

The USN selected the L3 AlaMO smart projectile in preference to the BAE 57mmm ORKA-3P, remember seeing quoted ALaMO max effective surface range of 10km/5.4nm.

[andrew98]

Are we getting that spec of gun? or a cheaper budget version?

[J. Tattersall]

"Light" is Treasury speak for "cheap". With some rather weak justification, they equate weight to cost. So they insist on the lightest ship possible.

Of course the last time that happened to any great degree, the T-42's were trimmed to such a point they were lousy sea keepers and lost their CIWS. The first was inconvenient, the second cost lives. But hey, the Treasury was happy.

Appaling stereotyping of people, and from my personal experience not merely unwarranted but untrue.

[J. Tattersall]

From Think Defence, a long but interesting read: https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/type-31- ... gate-gpff/

[MikeKiloPapa]

The 17km/9.2nm range claimed only when gun barrel at 45 degrees and doubt it could hit a barn door due to gun errors and dispersion.

Indeed, the oft quoted 17km is max ballistic range. Effective range will be about half that with normal ammo and 10km with ALaMO. Still quite respectable for what is a relatively small round (2.4ish kg projectile).