Might not be the reason the ships were requested but might be the explanation for their approval. Very depressing if trueTempest414 wrote:Starting to sound to me that type 32 is all about keeping Babcocks going until the type 4X comp comes along also sounds to me that type 26 will crawl along until then to
Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
The Gvmnt has indicated (thru 'intended drum beat', and not allowing for slightly different start times) that for every T26 there will be 1.5 of 'other' surface combatants
- assume we get the full 8 of the former
- then there will be 12 of the other (and the 6 AAW will still be around)
Oops! How do we get from the 26 down to the indicated 24? Where did this widely talked about 24 come from, btw
To pour some water onto the water wheel, to get it properly (indignantly ) going
- we will cut the ASW specialists short by two, and move over to AAW replacement earlier, or
- the slow crawl of the ASW specialists will continue towards the full eight, and the AAW replacement is derived from a different hull (and will be built in a different place)
COPIED OVER TO THE GENERAL FUTURE ESCORTS DISCUSSIONS as more than just T32 is in the scope
- assume we get the full 8 of the former
- then there will be 12 of the other (and the 6 AAW will still be around)
Oops! How do we get from the 26 down to the indicated 24? Where did this widely talked about 24 come from, btw
To pour some water onto the water wheel, to get it properly (indignantly ) going
- we will cut the ASW specialists short by two, and move over to AAW replacement earlier, or
- the slow crawl of the ASW specialists will continue towards the full eight, and the AAW replacement is derived from a different hull (and will be built in a different place)
COPIED OVER TO THE GENERAL FUTURE ESCORTS DISCUSSIONS as more than just T32 is in the scope
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
SofS Defence says wait for the IR to find out what the Type 32 is.
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Had a pre-Christmas catch up with an old class mate last night. He let slip that T31 was always intended to be a lightly armed flexible multi-mission ship in support of distributed operations. This was agreed with the RN several years ago to limit the impact of the manning crisis (now resolving), and to accelerate the insertion of of unmanned systems.
A follow on class was always on the cards as a GP platform with a higher war fighting capability. This might explain the gun fit of the T31 optimised for in-close operations and the dogged persistence to have altogether too many boat bays and the under flight deck mission modules.
If so I would expect the follow on order to be 6 hulls with a further order of a smaller class of inshore vessels similar to the Rivers for survey and patrol following this. I genuinely think the T31 is in part the MCHC(R). I expect to feel the wrath of the thread but he has been right several times before.
A follow on class was always on the cards as a GP platform with a higher war fighting capability. This might explain the gun fit of the T31 optimised for in-close operations and the dogged persistence to have altogether too many boat bays and the under flight deck mission modules.
If so I would expect the follow on order to be 6 hulls with a further order of a smaller class of inshore vessels similar to the Rivers for survey and patrol following this. I genuinely think the T31 is in part the MCHC(R). I expect to feel the wrath of the thread but he has been right several times before.
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Such a good idea.jimthelad wrote: the dogged persistence to have altogether too many boat bays and the under flight deck mission modules
is always fortcoming when it starts to look like that one has been rightjimthelad wrote:the wrath of the thread but he has been right several times before
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
In which case RN is building the wrong Frigate.jimthelad wrote:Had a pre-Christmas catch up with an old class mate last night. He let slip that T31 was always intended to be a lightly armed flexible multi-mission ship in support of distributed operations.
A follow on class was always on the cards as a GP platform with a higher war fighting capability. This might explain the gun fit of the T31 optimised for in-close operations and the dogged persistence to have altogether too many boat bays and the under flight deck mission modules.
If this is accurate and considering the budget uplift why not solve this backward procurement now. The T31's could be easily given an increased armament package and 5 or 6 patrol Leanders could be slotted into the T26 build programme at Govan.
I absolutely agree that a follow on batch was always on the cards if RN and MoD didn't screw up (which they haven't, so far) but I suspect OMT have been constantly extolling the virtues of Absalon since the IH design was chosen and RN maybe like what they see. The PPA is also a massively capable GP design and I suspect RN is keeping a close eye on that too.
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Interesting if it turns out to be the case. Not sure how a virtual relegation of the T31s into the MHPC role however would fit in with the RN's alleged plans to grow the escort fleet?jimthelad wrote:Had a pre-Christmas catch up with an old class mate last night. He let slip that T31 was always intended to be a lightly armed flexible multi-mission ship in support of distributed operations. This was agreed with the RN several years ago to limit the impact of the manning crisis (now resolving), and to accelerate the insertion of of unmanned systems.
A follow on class was always on the cards as a GP platform with a higher war fighting capability. This might explain the gun fit of the T31 optimised for in-close operations and the dogged persistence to have altogether too many boat bays and the under flight deck mission modules.
If so I would expect the follow on order to be 6 hulls with a further order of a smaller class of inshore vessels similar to the Rivers for survey and patrol following this. I genuinely think the T31 is in part the MCHC(R). I expect to feel the wrath of the thread but he has been right several times before.
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Looks like this site's hive mind was working in the right direction:
(From Twitter: @TheBrit96)
Specific mention of ASW and Minehunting roles is interesting. Goes a long way to explain why the Type 31 might not be the basis, at least in its current form.
(From Twitter: @TheBrit96)
Specific mention of ASW and Minehunting roles is interesting. Goes a long way to explain why the Type 31 might not be the basis, at least in its current form.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Deleted another page of off-topic posts. This isn’t the place for speculation. Let’s get back to news and related discussion.
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Thanks, very interesting news.Jensy wrote:Looks like this site's hive mind was working in the right direction:
(From Twitter: @TheBrit96)
Specific mention of ASW and Minehunting roles is interesting. Goes a long way to explain why the Type 31 might not be the basis, at least in its current form.
- shark bait
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
It's all good as long as the T32 doesn't become the default for mine clearance tasks.
There needs to be 5 + 5 ships, with the others being a utilitarian platform, probably something civilian derived.
There needs to be 5 + 5 ships, with the others being a utilitarian platform, probably something civilian derived.
@LandSharkUK
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Royal Navy’s New Type 32 Frigate To Serve As Unmanned Systems Mothership
Follow the global trend...
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... othership/British MP Jeremy Quin, Minister of State for Defence Procurement, shed some fresh light on the future Type 32 frigate of the Royal Navy today, answering a parliamentary question: The Type 32 will serve as mothership for unmanned systems.
...
Today's statement by Jeremy Quin has to be linked with last week's £184m contract award for the Maritime Mine Counter Measure (MMCM) program.
...
Until today, rumors made mention of the unmanned systems would being (initially) deployed from OSV type vessels of opportunity (this will be tested in the Gulf in the near future) and then from the future Type 26 and Type 31 frigates. It appears that the future “drone mothership” for the MMCM systems will actually be the Type 32 Frigate, acting as Hunt-class and Sandown-class replacement.
...
As Naval News has reported in the past, the navies of Singapore (MRCV) and Japan (30FFM) are working on such projects. So are the navies of Belgium and the Netherlands in the field of mine warfare. The Russian Navy recently experimented the same concept from one of its Project 22350 frigate while the U.S. Navy did the same with one of its Spearhead-class EPF. Last but not least, South Korea is actively working on this concept as well.
Follow the global trend...
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Interesting to see VLS in the above image in B position.
I wonder if that graphic came from babcock? How many vls do we think we can fit in there?
I wonder if that graphic came from babcock? How many vls do we think we can fit in there?
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Absolutely nowt to do with Babcock. It's a Stellar Systems Spartan CGI, which was essentially marketing bumf.Roders96 wrote:Interesting to see VLS in the above image in B position.
I wonder if that graphic came from babcock?
http://www.stellersystems.co.uk/wp-cont ... ochure.pdf
That particular image isn't on this link, but it's the same thing.
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Nope. Roders was very close to the right answer just 20m short.RichardIC wrote:Absolutely nowt to do with Babcock. It's a Stellar Systems Spartan CGI, which was essentially marketing bumf.Roders96 wrote:Interesting to see VLS in the above image in B position.
I wonder if that graphic came from babcock?
http://www.stellersystems.co.uk/wp-cont ... ochure.pdf
That particular image isn't on this link, but it's the same thing.
That's the original Babcock Type 31 design, the Arrowhead 120. Not really any deeper connection between it and the 140 than the name, as one was designed in-house, the other bought OTS.
Project Spartan (see below) had some similar features around the bow, but a massively different arrangement aft and amidships. Though both had a rear boat ramp.
However the main thing these two designs have in common is that neither is likely to ever see the light of day. If Arrowhead 120 was too small for T31, then it's likely too small for T32. The Stellar Systems Spartan is a very nicely designed fantasy ship. Good bit of marketing for Stellar and probably raised their profile with the MoD but no shipbuilder was prepared to pitch it, much less build the thing.
Download for Arrowhead 120 PDF link: https://www.babcockinternational.com/wp ... IGITAL.pdf
STRN Article: https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/babcoc ... mpetition/
Both could take up to 16 Mk.41 VLS and 8 deck launched anti-ship missiles.Roders96 wrote: How many vls do we think we can fit in there?
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
- ArmChairCivvy
- Senior Member
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Jensy wrote:Roders was very close to the right answer just 20m short.
Now that idle speculation has turned into a near fact, time to move onto the other thread as it looks like "Royal Navy’s New Type 32 Frigate To Serve As Unmanned Systems Mothership".
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Happy to stand corrected on the origin, I completely forgot there was an Arrowhead 120. But still more marketing material than a ship design.Jensy wrote:However the main thing these two designs have in common is that neither is likely to ever see the light of day
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Interesting comments on our (Naval News) LinkedIn page
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Interesting that 15t lift requirement
- I think up to 20t is available (dimensions permitting; EDIT: meaning not counting deck cranes... a different category)
- I think up to 20t is available (dimensions permitting; EDIT: meaning not counting deck cranes... a different category)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Quite so. Indeed every single news article on the Type 32 appears to have a CGI or photo from a different Royal Navy vessel, concept or proposal!RichardIC wrote:Happy to stand corrected on the origin, I completely forgot there was an Arrowhead 120. But still more marketing material than a ship design.Jensy wrote:However the main thing these two designs have in common is that neither is likely to ever see the light of day
Arrowhead 120 and Spartan as above.
The Drive has what looks like the VT Global Corvette from over a decade ago (Fixed, thanks ACC!):
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... nding-plan
The Portsmouth News has Arrowhead 140/T31 as does Naval Technology:
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... ts-3053438
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/r ... s-systems/
Shepard Media has a Hunt Class (though for justifiable reasons):
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/nava ... really-be/
All just guesswork and supposition from the media for now!
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
We did it better hereJensy wrote: All just guesswork and supposition
At least we now know what the MCM kit will cost: divide this
" unmanned mine countermeasure (MCM) capabilities with a £184 million ($245 million) investment" by three
... the result will then become part of the GFE items, and the ships can be procured 'frugally'
- the investment so far (not unsubstantial) has gone into R&D and trials
PS The first link missed the target (an AAR piccie comes up by clicking on it)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Not sure if this has been posted before but here's the Babcock update on T31 progress - 30 minute video and really quite informative
https://www.babcockinternational.com/ne ... ss-update/
A few things stand out to me
- It's not just an assembly point - the fab shop looks pretty substantial
- Assembly fully undercover (dig at the Clyde methinks)
- No scaffolding (ditto)
- Pursuing further commercial opportunities
https://www.babcockinternational.com/ne ... ss-update/
A few things stand out to me
- It's not just an assembly point - the fab shop looks pretty substantial
- Assembly fully undercover (dig at the Clyde methinks)
- No scaffolding (ditto)
- Pursuing further commercial opportunities
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Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
That's ships ; not steel structures for other industries as is being done to support the reopenings happening in NI & Devon, diversification (with the same skills and machinery) helping to stabilise cash flowSD67 wrote:Pursuing further commercial opportunities
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Interesting, the page on Japanese 30FFM project quotes a displacement of 5500 to 6000 t, 130-140m length which sounds alot like a type 31. But the speed is over 30kts and "very high speed" is listed as a key requirement (mother needs to keep up with her children?). If we're following the international trend it sounds like a type 31 with GTs, and reconfigured mission spacexav wrote:Royal Navy’s New Type 32 Frigate To Serve As Unmanned Systems Mothership
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... othership/British MP Jeremy Quin, Minister of State for Defence Procurement, shed some fresh light on the future Type 32 frigate of the Royal Navy today, answering a parliamentary question: The Type 32 will serve as mothership for unmanned systems.
...
Today's statement by Jeremy Quin has to be linked with last week's £184m contract award for the Maritime Mine Counter Measure (MMCM) program.
...
Until today, rumors made mention of the unmanned systems would being (initially) deployed from OSV type vessels of opportunity (this will be tested in the Gulf in the near future) and then from the future Type 26 and Type 31 frigates. It appears that the future “drone mothership” for the MMCM systems will actually be the Type 32 Frigate, acting as Hunt-class and Sandown-class replacement.
...
As Naval News has reported in the past, the navies of Singapore (MRCV) and Japan (30FFM) are working on such projects. So are the navies of Belgium and the Netherlands in the field of mine warfare. The Russian Navy recently experimented the same concept from one of its Project 22350 frigate while the U.S. Navy did the same with one of its Spearhead-class EPF. Last but not least, South Korea is actively working on this concept as well.
Follow the global trend...
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... shipyards/
Re: Type 31 & Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Does a multi role sonar, towed, hull mounted and so on exist that can be used for various missions from ASW to Mine warfare to Hydrographics? I would not expect it to be a master of all but competent. Such a system would be ideal for the T-32, being used to point the unmanned systems to an area to be investigated, whatever the mission. Having the latter able to talk to other ships and the Merlin HM2s would also be very useful.