Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[RetroSicotte]

If I had to take a wild guess, my prediction would be essentially a non-ASW Type 23 (in terms of capability) with a modern hull design.

Bunch of CAMM (24 is my prediction), some ASMs (8), torps (2xtwin tube) and a helo with a 127mm gun on front. Nothing fancy. 4k something tonnes. Modern automation lowering manning to permit them.

I'd be perfectly happy with that bulking out the fleet a bit, honestly.

[donald_of_tokyo]

@ArmChairCivvy

Thanks for response. Yes, I think Sea Ceptor is good idea. Apart from its cold launch merit, it's small size and minimum range (just the horizon from ~20m high radar) I like it. Small(er) SAM with large(r) number has always been RN's choice. SeaCat, SeaWolf, both are much small and short ranged than SeaSparrow, ESSM and ASTAR15, but with larger number of missiles onboard.

@Shark Bait

ANZAC has long range, 6000nm @18kt. It is not much different from that of T23, 7500nm @15kt (note the speed difference) and surely longer than that of T22, 4500nm@18kt.

Its equipments I have already listed. I agree it is "moderate", but not bad. Good for light frigate.

Living standard and enduarance (days), I don't know in detail. But, I am sure that of ANZAC is not as high as T26, and will be even worse thant that of T23. But, they do send it to 6-7 month deployments (mostly Indean ocean). I hope someone from Aus or NZ can help me.

WRT range, I have a question. Any CV Task Force must accompany tanker(s). Air strike operation CANNOT be done without it. If that is the case, small fraction of fuel for (1 or 2 of) the CV's escorts can be obtained there quite easily, isn't it? (other escorts are T45 and T26, both with long-long range). Thus, I think 6000nm range will be enough for CVTF escort duty. Plase note I am NOT saying 4500 nm (of T22). It was proved to be too short in the Falkland war, to my knowledge.

[seaspear]

Anzac class derived from the Meko 200 class and to be replaced by the Hobart class an evolvement of the Spanish F100 class similar to the F105 , perhaps if Germany was interested in building T26 under licence a reciprical arrangement could be had for a choice of the German naval vessels under consideration , saving money on development costs

[R686]

I am somewhat bemused by people's reactions to the light frigate proposal however. I have my own thoughts on all this but i could have sworn that the prospect of having a larger fleet of 'flag flying patrol vessels' was something much desired by many prior to this SDSR decision even, in the opinion of some, if it came at the cost of a number of the T26s??? In fact i am sure that it was an idea touted and generally well received back on the days of MP.net. I even seem to recall some of our resident bloggers and site owners running articles on the various merits of such an idea unless i am much mistaken.

Theoretically, and i stress theoretically, i think the decision could be quite sound. With 14 high end escorts i think we could still comfortably cover the needs of our CBGs and Amphibious groups plus the various higher end patrols and port visits if they are no longer needed for menial maritime security roles and policing missions; which will hopefully be taken over by the new light frigate. In fact, i could even see it leading to a more efficient use of the fleet mass than we presently enjoy even we never make it past 19 escorts in total. If the surface fleet expands with the addition of the light frigate then the possible net gain in effective operational mass could be even greater still.

Much of this however depends on the capability of the new design itself. The must haves for me are that it must also carry the 5 inch gun, must have CAMM installed (possibly in a reduced loadout but with provision for expansion), it must have a capable radar/sensor suite (preferably ARTISAN), it must have a capable AShM and must have provision for long range land attack - preferably through a Mk41 VLS (even if it is FFBNW). Get that, and we are laughing to my mind.

Someone else posted similer to that, and I always think of an Anzac with ASMD set up. Pity AGS is not available they would make a good all rounder

But sometimes going light does not always equal less $$ just look at the USCG Legend Class Cutters

[Tony Williams]

What the royal navy lacks is escorts, so what ever we have needs to be able to keep up with the rest of the fleet.

The core of our future fleet will be two aircraft carriers for which six T45 and eight T26 probably make a satisfactory escort force. Any serious threat will see the carrier force and/or SSNs dispatched to deal with it.

The question is: what kind of ships do we need for the other tasks involving low-to-moderate threat levels? I am in favour of simpler and less expensive frigates for such tasks. As I've mentioned, such ships should have diesel engines, be equipped with Sea Ceptor, a hanger for Wildcat and a flight deck for Merlin, and a 5"/127mm gun. They won't need anti-ship or land-attack missiles (guided long-range 127mm projectiles will provide some of that capability). If people start festooning them with lots of nice-to-have but not necessary extras the building and running costs will rapidly balloon towards T26 levels, thereby negating the whole point of the exercise.

Something like the French La Fayette class (3,200-3,600 tons) looks about right in terms of basic ship characteristics (and it's been very successful in the export market, including a stretched version):

[RichardIC]

Realistically I think many of us realised that 13 T26 was looking highly unlikely. In my ideal world the RN would be getting 13 26s and 5 FLFs. Instead we're getting 8 26s, 5 FLFs and 5 OPVs - the huge danger now is that THIS doesn't happen.

Any attempt to over-spec the FLF is going to see it smothered at birth. It has to represent a huge saving in capital and running costs over the T26 or it ain't going to happen.

A Mk 45 alone costs £20 million, which is exactly why the Iver Huitfeldts don't have them. Adding on Mk41s, anti-ship missiles/land attack etc absolutely guarantees FLF won't get past the concept stage.

Realistically we need something that can do Atlantic Patrol north and south and anti-piracy off the east coast of Africa, coastal overwatch, a spot of civie evacuation. Real, proper, bead-and-butter jobs.

Venator 110 Patrol Frigate gets my vote for that.

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/5045881/B ... -datasheet

Diesel-engined for endurance and economy, standard crew of well under 100 but with provision to carry more, large enough to be globally deployable, enough volume for the obligatory mission bay, a proper flight deck and hangar, enough warriness to make it a credible deterrent to most potential lower-tier adversaries. And crucially a fraction of the cost of a T26 (I'm guessing).

You'd almost have thought BMT had anticipated this precise situation arising!



How much time and cash to get from concept to properly worked-up design? That's the big question for me.

https://youtu.be/H15NLLHBIBo

[Pseudo]

I'd expect that the cost requirement would lead two Sea Ceptor being the only missile system fitted. There might be a for but not with provision for anti-ship missiles, but I'd have thought that anti-ship capabilities would be provided by an embarked Wildcat.

[shark bait]

The question is: what kind of ships do we need for the other tasks involving low-to-moderate threat levels?

Realistically we need something that can do Atlantic Patrol north and south and anti-piracy off the east coast of Africa. Real, proper, bead-and-butter jobs.

Why are we designing war ships to operate in areas where there is little conflict, against an imaginary poorly quipped enemy. That is completely the wrong approach, and has little value to the United Kingdom.

Any royal navy frigate needs to be a real 'war fighter', which means a big gun on the front, sea ceptor, MK41, CIWS, hangar and a capable radar. If that can be floated around on some cheaper steal then great. Anything less and you have something Switzerland might be interested in, that isn't fit for purpose for the royal navy.

[marktigger]

FFL will just be a back door cut on the frigate fleet it will be like t26 remain conceptual for 10-15 years meantime watch what happens to t23 numbers when the manpower demands of the carriers start to kick in I wonder how quickly 3 or 4 T23's will end up in extended readiness.

[marktigger]

The question is: what kind of ships do we need for the other tasks involving low-to-moderate threat levels?

Realistically we need something that can do Atlantic Patrol north and south and anti-piracy off the east coast of Africa. Real, proper, bead-and-butter jobs.

Why are we designing war ships to operate in areas where there is little conflict, against an imaginary poorly quipped enemy. That is completely the wrong approach, and has little value to the United Kingdom.

Any royal navy frigate needs to be a real 'war fighter', which means a big gun on the front, sea ceptor, MK41, CIWS, hangar and a capable radar. If that can be floated around on some cheaper steal then great. Anything less and you have something Switzerland might be interested in, that isn't fit for purpose for the royal navy.

Yes what happens when the 2nd rate Frigate has to be bounced into a conflict because there are no other vessels available or its lower threat patrol area throws up a high threat at short notice.

[RichardIC]

Any royal navy frigate needs to be a real 'war fighter', which means a big gun on the front, sea ceptor, MK41, CIWS, hangar and a capable radar. If that can be floated around on some cheaper steal then great. Anything less and you have something Switzerland might be interested in, that isn't fit for purpose for the royal navy.

I understand exactly the point you're making, of course I do. But it isn't going to happen and the reason is £££££££££. So you can settle for eight T26 or compromise and get something extra.

I know which I'm voting for.

[Tony Williams]

Yes what happens when the 2nd rate Frigate has to be bounced into a conflict because there are no other vessels available or its lower threat patrol area throws up a high threat at short notice.

A light frigate available in theatre, armed with Sea Ceptor, a Wildcat helo and a 127mm gun with PG ammo, will be vastly superior to having no ship available at all because we haven't got enough high-end ships to spare one.

[RichardIC]

Yes what happens when the 2nd rate Frigate has to be bounced into a conflict because there are no other vessels available or its lower threat patrol area throws up a high threat at short notice.

What Tony said.

Although, on-balance, I'd love to see the RN adopt a modern medium-cal gun like to Oto Strales or the Bae Mk 110 which has a level of genuine multi-role utility - although clearly not the extended range PG punch of a much more expensive 127mm.

[serge750]

Hi guys

The type 23 does not have the Mk 41, now we only have subs that can launch land attack missiles, surely getting 8 x T26 is a massive upgrade in capability,

In a ideal world we would have more top end escourts, surely if a ship gets camm, ciws, gun with PG shells, wildcat, half decent sensors she would be good enough for most jobs asked of her, definatly good enough for independent ops, ok not as good as a T26 at sub hunting or future land attack or a T45 for area defence but we (or will ) have them, & they will be allocated to protect the main carriers/amphibious group,

[shark bait]

In a ideal world we would have more top end escourts, surely if a ship gets camm, ciws, gun with PG shells, wildcat, half decent sensors she would be good enough for most jobs asked of her, definatly good enough for independent ops, ok not as good as a T26 at sub hunting or future land attack or a T45 for area defence but we (or will ) have them, & they will be allocated to protect the main carriers/amphibious group,

It possibly would be good enough for most tasks, but what happens the day we need it to do something extra.

I think all major surface combatants should have a VLS. The MK41 gives flexibility and future proofs the platform. With MK41 you have a massive growth margin, with a wide choice of weapons ready to fit under an UOR. Because it is relatively simple to use them to add new capabilities, through life upgrade and support costs may be lower.

We hear about being agile and fast reacting to new threats. MK41 can help to achieved that.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Yes what happens when the 2nd rate Frigate has to be bounced into a conflict because there are no other vessels available or its lower threat patrol area throws up a high threat at short notice.

A light frigate available in theatre, armed with Sea Ceptor, a Wildcat helo and a 127mm gun with PG ammo, will be vastly superior to having no ship available at all because we haven't got enough high-end ships to spare one.

That's certainly what i am inclined to believe. I am of the mind that, potentially, these 5 new light frigates could very well end up resulting in a significant net gain in terms of high end escort availability for our more demanding tasks. With up to 5 patrol duties occupied by a new light frigate we would have up to 14 high end escorts to dedicate to the 'big' jobs - like protecting the carriers, blasting through nations' front doors etc.

That would be a massive effective step up from what we can manage with our present arrangement AFAIK. If needs be, should the situation call for it, hopefully the light frigates will also have the right balance of capability to be able to make meaningful contributions even to the types of higher end operations mentioned above; be it contributing towards a fleet defence picket or conducting land attack/NGF support. With inbuilt growth potential we could possibly even see future variations of the end design built for even more demanding roles – light a light AD version perhaps?

Managed well this could potentially be quite a positive thing for the RN. We just have to worry about squandering the opportunity - or should i say allowing the Treasury to squander it on our behalf.

[marktigger]

the elephant in the room is manpower. By postponing 5 frigates the Government solves manpower problems in the medium term as could see the Type 23 fleet run down to 8 vessels before t26 appears to crew the carriers.

[rec]

Why not build a couple of Khareefs instead of 2 extra Rivers and try out them as a potential light frigate? Or even just go for a modified khareef, slightly larger than the ones built for Oman?

[marktigger]

the light frigate would be one of the ships that will need a large flightdeck as they will be in areas were we are wanting to project power but keep a low profile so the flexibility of having a deck capable of handling merlin or chinook would be a bonus.
Give merlin ASuW update for a medium- long range missile like harpoon and you might be able to avoid having to give the ship that capability

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

the light frigate would be one of the ships that will need a large flightdeck as they will be in areas were we are wanting to project power but keep a low profile so the flexibility of having a deck capable of handling merlin or chinook would be a bonus.
Give merlin ASuW update for a medium- long range missile like harpoon and you might be able to avoid having to give the ship that capability

Harpoon is obsolete and arguably has been for years now, IMHO. No matter what kind of upgrades they do, they would need to fundamentally redesign the system to return it to relevance - no amount of improved seeker and data link magic will compensate for its sluggish speed, a restrictive range, unambitious flight profile and hideously apparent observability relative to new designs that have emerged.

[Digger22]

Didn't think they were talking about somebody else's export potential!. By the time we get round to building these things they will cost as much as a Stripped out T26, so just build those!. A fitted for but not with T26, would do the 'boring' stuff perfectly well giving the opportunity to upgrade as and if required. For this proposed 'Light' to be an export success, it would have to be the best out there, and that will not be cheap!. In short this idea is complete and utter B......s.

[abc123]

Yes what happens when the 2nd rate Frigate has to be bounced into a conflict because there are no other vessels available or its lower threat patrol area throws up a high threat at short notice.

A light frigate available in theatre, armed with Sea Ceptor, a Wildcat helo and a 127mm gun with PG ammo, will be vastly superior to having no ship available at all because we haven't got enough high-end ships to spare one.

Fully agreed Tony...

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Was just reminded of this on the T26 thread - the F110 from Spain. Seems to be a good model of what to aim for - in the 4000-5000 ton range with a medium calibre gun, Mk41 VLS with an advanced integrated mast and entirely new combat suite. Will be interesting to see how their experience works out and how it may influence our own. Just goes to show that, if they can pull it off, 'Light' does not have to spell abject doom and gloom: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /31840781/

[malcrf]

I think all major surface combatants should have a VLS. The MK41 gives flexibility and future proofs the platform. With MK41 you have a massive growth margin, with a wide choice of weapons ready to fit under an UOR. Because it is relatively simple to use them to add new capabilities, through life upgrade and support costs may be lower.

We hear about being agile and fast reacting to new threats. MK41 can help to achieved that.

Completely agree, but we can swap Wildcat for Merlin and opt for simple Diesel propulsion. Anything else expensive that can be left out or swapped for something cheaper?

[Halidon]

I think all major surface combatants should have a VLS. The MK41 gives flexibility and future proofs the platform. With MK41 you have a massive growth margin, with a wide choice of weapons ready to fit under an UOR. Because it is relatively simple to use them to add new capabilities, through life upgrade and support costs may be lower.

We hear about being agile and fast reacting to new threats. MK41 can help to achieved that.

Completely agree, but we can swap Wildcat for Merlin and opt for simple Diesel propulsion. Anything else expensive that can be left out or swapped for something cheaper?

Could always delete the bow sonar like the F125.