Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Repulse
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Aethulwulf, I’m sure they can build blocks, the point is the capability to assemble and launch ships would also be focused in Scotland. With the political version of Jimmy Krankie increasingly stirring up trouble, this has to be a strong factor in our decision making IMO.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Perhaps due to my differing views on what an additional (to the T45/T26 and Rivers) warship Class should give, I really do not understand the excitement over the Arrowhead 140.

Any T31 should be IMO a Multirole Presence Warship, by this I mean a ship that can fulfil the standard constabulary roles, Patrol SLOCs, but also act as a mothership for off board USuV and UUV systems in global higher threat environments. It should be part of the future replacement of the MCM fleet as well as the T23 GPs. It would give it scale beyond the five vessels initially being discussed.

My ideal T31 would probably be the Leander plus integrated a T26 style mission bay capable of handling off board 12m systems and boats.

The Arrowhead to me is just a fantasy for those who love the IH, which in all ways inferior to the T45/T26 mix planned. What’s worse is that it will come with a very dumbed down set of systems and weapons compared to the IH to sit within the £250mn price tag (which is likely to be extremely difficult). It will be a dead end, without any need to increase beyond 5 ships, no real export market and with non standard RN systems that will just drain money from the limited budget.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Repulse wrote:Aethulwulf, I’m sure they can build blocks, the point is the capability to assemble and launch ships would also be focused in Scotland. With the political version of Jimmy Krankie increasingly stirring up trouble, this has to be a strong factor in our decision making IMO.
Getting way off topic now but needs to be said.

This is the kind of Little Englander bollocks that helps fuel Scottish nationalism. There should be zero tolerance of it from anyone who cares about the United Kingdom.... and this is the ukdefenceforum.

Thanks.

Repulse
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

RichardIC wrote:This is the kind of Little Englander bollocks that helps fuel Scottish nationalism. There should be zero tolerance of it from anyone who cares about the United Kingdom.... and this is the ukdefenceforum.
You will not be surprised that I take exception to this bollocks - Scottish independence is a real possibility, it is not Little Englander to face reality and put mitigation plans in place.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Repulse wrote:You will not be surprised that I take exception to this bollocks - Scottish independence is a real possibility, it is not Little Englander to face reality and put mitigation plans in place.
You seem to have a superficial admiration for Churchill, so think on this...

On June 4 1940 he had two choices. He could either make his “fight them on the beeches” speech or he could go, let’s face reality, German victory is a real possibility, let’s put mitigation plans in place.

Be more Churchill.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

MikeKiloPapa wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Leander has RN-common CMS and common 3D radar, while Arrowhead 140 introduces new CMS and radar.
Only if RN wants it......they are free to specify or mandate the use of CMS-1 and Artisan.
I'm not talking about what should have been possible. What I am talking about is the real bid. I saw no indication CMS is specified, and Arrowhead 140 team has Thales as core member.
And, Arrowhead 140 has smaller boat alcove (I do not know why).
Maybe , Babcock doesnt actually specify the size, but according to STRN it can accomodate the RNs biggest RHIBs....in any case the potential for bigger boat bays/mission bay is amply present if needed.
Not sure. Arrowhead 140 states 9 m, even though Leander states 11 m from a year ago. This is what we know. Also, by scaling the CG, it is surely smaller than 11m. If it is the "fire-wall separation size", it is not so easy to make it 11 m.
Arrowhead will be built in England just the same way that Leander will. Even though its base design is derived from a danish vessel, the actual A140 is wholly redesigned in the UK. Why should that be an issue?
Arrowhead is NOT built in England. The A140 design is based on Danish one, far from "wholly redesigned". It is the same to saying, "Hunter class is fully redesigned in Australia".
Sigh!....you keep harping on about IP Donald-san, despite clear indications that it is not an issue....While i cant be absolutely sure, all things point to the conclusion that it is very unlikely that we will ever see the IH and A140 compete for the same market.
Sorry there is no information against my comment, zero. Are there any comment supporting your comment? Babcock has a license, and can build Arrowhead 140 for export. It is clearly stated. But, nothing is said about it can prevent OMT from proposing independently.

Similarly, T26 IP is "fully transferred to Australia". It is also clearly stated. Do you think BAE-Australia can permit BAE-UK to bid for other navies? I've never seen such special IP agreement.

I'm not saying I am correct. I'm saying there is no announcement for such a "special" agreement as you say. (This is fact). If your idea is normal, BAE-UK will be also limited to bid for T26 always including BAE-Australia (i.e. work share to Australia). Do you think so too?
Aethulwulf wrote:Not really an issue. If the Leander bid doesn't win, I'm sure Cammell Laird would be more than happy to taken on any Arrowhead block and assembly work offered their way.
Highly unlikely. T31e is "fixed price" bid, and proposed to be built in NI and Scotland. Inclusion of Camell Laird can be there, but surely must be minor. If not, how can you bid with fixed price?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

RichardIC, “Superficial “ - “appearing to be true or real only until examined more closely.”? I’ll ignore your childish insults and assume you are having a bad day.

I am the biggest advocate for increasing the T26 order, which yes will be built in Scotland. Yes I would like the T26 modularised so other U.K. yards could support the build to increase speed and also generate export opportunities, but accept that is not position today.

The UK does however need more than one yard for building warships, it’s key not to be held ransom of events and give some limited scale to expand the fleet of ever needed. This needs to make economic sense and be sustainable - the T31 and ultimate MCM replacement is the only gig in town to do this. It is an insurance policy, spreading risk - one of the biggest risks to UK ship building is Scottish Independence, so our insurance policy should not be in Scotland.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Aethulwulf »

All I was saying was that the "possibility" of Scottish independence will not be a factor in the T31 decision, because if Arrowhead did win and if Scotland became independent, it would be possible to shift both block and assembly work to CL; which they have already undertaken both types of work for the Polar research ship.

The fact that this will cost more would be lost in the chaos caused by the breakup of the UK.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Although I am also guilty of going of topic, how much of the above is actual news?

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Lets say the Scottish leave there will be a need for them to form a Navy of sorts for me this would take the form of 3 x River B2's and two T-31's fitted with CAPTAS-2 plus Bulwark. this way the rest of the UK would take the first 3 T-31's and the Scotts would end up with a useful fleet as there only real job will be to patrol home waters and help re-enforce Norway

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Qwerty »

The Albion class are labour intensive warships, I doubt they’d appeal to a small neutral nation..?

Being neutral, Scotland wouldn’t reinforce anyone.

I could see them receiving some of the GP T23’s, though.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

Tempest414 wrote:Lets say the Scottish leave there will be a need for them to form a Navy of sorts for me this would take the form of 3 x River B2's and two T-31's fitted with CAPTAS-2 plus Bulwark. this way the rest of the UK would take the first 3 T-31's and the Scotts would end up with a useful fleet as there only real job will be to patrol home waters and help re-enforce Norway
The explicitly stated result was 2x T23 GPs by the SNP a few times along with some OPVs and patrol boats, plus a "support ship". ie - A whole lot of nothing.

But that aside, we're off news. Hold it off here, much as I'd love to explain why the "Scottish Navy" is a trash idea. :D

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by jonas »

This is the T31 thread right ? Although the answer given is pretty dumb. If the MOD does not know by now what the role of the ship, operating environment and future threats are then something is seriously wrong at fraggle rock.

Parliamentary written answers 9th July :-


Q
Asked by Mr Kevan Jones
(North Durham)
Asked on: 01 July 2019
Ministry of Defence
Type 31 Frigates: Guided Weapons
271442
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, whether her Department has plans for the Sea Ceptor missile system to be fitted to the five planned Type 31e frigates.
A
Answered by: Stuart Andrew
Answered on: 09 July 2019

Final decisions on the weapons specification and fit of the Type 31e frigates will be made at the main investment decision point, taking into account the role of the ship, operating environment and future threats.

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Gabriele
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Gabriele »

Some MOD idiocies and some parts of Britain's way of handling matters in and around Parliament as a whole are just idiotic to no end.

Then people wonders why every department leaks stuff to the press. Of course they do. This idiotic "we aren't saying anything" makes it utterly unavoidable.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

jonas wrote:Parliamentary written answers 9th July :-

Q Asked by Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham), Asked on: 01 July 2019
Ministry of Defence
Type 31 Frigates: Guided Weapons
271442: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, whether her Department has plans for the Sea Ceptor missile system to be fitted to the five planned Type 31e frigates.
A Answered by: Stuart Andrew, Answered on: 09 July 2019
Final decisions on the weapons specification and fit of the Type 31e frigates will be made at the main investment decision point, taking into account the role of the ship, operating environment and future threats.
Thanks for the info!
Gabriele wrote:Some MOD idiocies and some parts of Britain's way of handling matters in and around Parliament as a whole are just idiotic to no end.
Then people wonders why every department leaks stuff to the press. Of course they do. This idiotic "we aren't saying anything" makes it utterly unavoidable.
If I read it literary, it is answering the question clearly.

RN is NOT requiring CAMM to be carried on T31e. It is only "if possible" = "better be with".

So, T31e is a
- naval frigate standard hull ship, with good endurance and range, with CMS and 3D radar,
- with a ">= 57 mm" calibre gun, and a CIWS, and a Wildcat helicopter,
- added with 4 RHIBs and 2 ISO containers.
- Only if money is left, the CIWS can be replaced by CAMM.

Sorry to say, but this is actually what was written in T31e RFI, and also what the Stuart Andrew is answering.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

[/quote] If I read it literary, it is answering the question clearly.

RN is NOT requiring CAMM to be carried on T31e. It is only "if possible" = "better be with".

So, T31e is a
- naval frigate standard hull ship, with good endurance and range, with CMS and 3D radar,
- with a ">= 57 mm" calibre gun, and a CIWS, and a Wildcat helicopter,
- added with 4 RHIBs and 2 ISO containers.
- Only if money is left, the CIWS can be replaced by CAMM.

Sorry to say, but this is actually what was written in T31e RFI, and also what the Stuart Andrew is answering.[/quote]

Donald san with all due respect he is not saying that all , all he is doing is offering a standard MOD/Parli team holding reply written by a junior civil servant of probably C2 grade who is most certainly not an SME. There will not have been any input from a serving officer , RN or otherwise of any rank or grade, and he or she would most certainly not have had the time or will to consult the IPT.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

I would agree this is a civil servant covering his ass as he is right to do until a winner is picked and the full brief is set i.e what kit if any will be ported over from the T-23s will old gun systems be used or new ones

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

One of Babcock's Type 31 team members having a spot of bother building ships on time & money. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the only team member that has any current ship building experience.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11556 ... a-sturgeon

Tbenz
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tbenz »

In terms of the best design for Type 31, should we not be looking at the original Absalon class from which the Iver Huitfeldt and Arrowhead 140 are derived?

AFAIK, the Absalon can carry two Merlin, approx. 200 troops, two RIBs and two decent-sized boats launched from the stern gantry. This capability might be very useful in the Gulf right now.

In addition, the class is relatively well-armed with a 5-inch main gun and up to 16 SSM and 36 SAM fitted in the ‘bathtub’.

Issues of money and crewing aside, the only potential downside is the relatively low speed (24 knots).

We already have high-end, specialised escorts in the form of Type 45 for AAW and Type 26 for ASW, albeit not enough. If we were to order to order an additional Type 26 for a total of 6 Type 45 and 9 Type 26, this would give us based on the rule of three 2 Type 45 and 2 Type 26 for carrier escort and 1 Type 26 for the TAPS role at all times.

An additional 6 Absalom-based Type 31 would see an increase in the number of escorts to 21 and provide a decent general purpose capability.

Just a thought...

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Clive F »

Tbenz, and how do we man them?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Clive F wrote:Tbenz, and how do we man them?
I see this argument a lot but it only stands ground if you think that the new vessel will be in service in just a year or 2. When you take in to account that any increase in the fleet will take 10 years that is enough time to plan for personal increase while at the same time older heavy man power vessels are replaced.

What could make a quick impact in the gulf IMO is the purchase of vessel like the Mk6 patrol boat and CB90s that can be deployed via an Albion or Bay.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

News only please. Actually the issue itself is interesting, so shall go to escort thread I think.

With self reflection, as I myself do the same thing sometimes...

Tbenz
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tbenz »

Apologies, I can see now this should have gone in the Escort thread!

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49073445

The Harland and Wolff shipyard in Belfast can only survive until the end of the month without a deal, Unite the Union has said.
The business has been up for sale amid serious financial problems at its Norwegian parent company.
Trade unions have been hoping that the yard could benefit from plans to build more Royal Navy ships in the UK.
But now fear there is a risk that it will not survive for long enough to participate in that.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Both Arrowhead and MEKO are in risk of resigning from the bid? Anyway, it looks very difficult to bid with fixed price, both HW and AP, they need to add up the survival cost until the actual build starts.

Yes Cammell Laird, if lost the Leander bid, can help, but as it will be free bid process, I cannot blame them if they try to bid as high as possible, eating all the profits of Babcock. CL itself is struggling to survive.

By the way, only 130 labors there? Appledore had 190 when abandoned by Babcock. (while 140 of them were already relocated to Devonport, and only ~40 was remaining there).

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