Notably, French Marin National is NOT in better condition than RN. Now with FREMM, it looks better, but in 2000-2010, its escort replacement is also in snails pace. Even so, they sold Normandy to Egypt. In the current case, their La Fayette frigate (without upgrade) is nearly out of date in many sense. For example, they lack ASM defense capability other than soft kill. Also, only 3 hulls of them are to be added with MISTRAL MANPADS to replace their aging Crotal NG, new CMS and a hull sonar. Not much different, I think. Even so, France does it.dmereifield wrote:Such an approach would make sense if the RN had a more regular, faster, drumbeat of escorts coming online....but of course they delayed the programmes so much (I.e. T26), have such a slow rate of build (T26), cancelled too many hulls (T45), have made poor choices leading to low availability (T45) that they have had to life extend old hulls (T23) and thus don't have much of a buffer to be able to accept delays by giving up their own hulls in production....
Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
*shouldLord Jim wrote:Or all five of the T-31s on order could go for export and we could go straight to the T-32.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
C'mon New zealand or sell them to greece for peanuts !
I don't really mind a ho - lo mix but a HMS & 16 mk41 would make the T31 better
I don't really mind a ho - lo mix but a HMS & 16 mk41 would make the T31 better
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Indonesia to implement Arrowhead 140 design on Iver Huitfeldt-variant contract
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/nava ... t-contract
Indonesian shipbuilder PT PAL will implement the Arrowhead 140 design on a contract it secured from Jakarta in April 2020 for two Iver Huitfeldt class-variant frigates.
In response to questions from Janes, PT PAL's public affairs office confirmed that the two-ship contract worth USD720 million is officially in force, and work is under way in Surabaya, Indonesia, to prepare for the first build.
However, Janes also understands from a separate industry source that discussions are still ongoing between PT PAL and Babcock on design modifications that will be undertaken to meet the Indonesian Navy's requirements.
As reported by Janes in June 2020, the Indonesian Ministry of Defence (MoD) signed a preamble contract for a variant of the Iver Huitfeldt frigate with PT PAL in April 2020. However, the two-ship contract only became effective from 24 May 2021, PT PAL told Janes on 5 October.
Rest is behind the paywall but it looks like Indonesia has now gone further than merely securing the design.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/nava ... t-contract
Indonesian shipbuilder PT PAL will implement the Arrowhead 140 design on a contract it secured from Jakarta in April 2020 for two Iver Huitfeldt class-variant frigates.
In response to questions from Janes, PT PAL's public affairs office confirmed that the two-ship contract worth USD720 million is officially in force, and work is under way in Surabaya, Indonesia, to prepare for the first build.
However, Janes also understands from a separate industry source that discussions are still ongoing between PT PAL and Babcock on design modifications that will be undertaken to meet the Indonesian Navy's requirements.
As reported by Janes in June 2020, the Indonesian Ministry of Defence (MoD) signed a preamble contract for a variant of the Iver Huitfeldt frigate with PT PAL in April 2020. However, the two-ship contract only became effective from 24 May 2021, PT PAL told Janes on 5 October.
Rest is behind the paywall but it looks like Indonesia has now gone further than merely securing the design.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
The full article outlines some that Babcock have provided a spec smaller and less heavily armed than originally intended in the Sept licence agreement compared to the April 2020 contract.
(BOLD are the April specs for comparison)
The new spec is 140m long (143.57m), 4x8200kW engines (4x9100kW engines), 27kt top speed, (28kt top speed), 8248nm range (9000nm range), no bow thruster (bow thruster)
In terms of weapons fit ...
12 VLS for MRSAM (24 VLS), 12 VLS for LRSAM (32 VLS), 16 VLS for SSM (16 VLS), 2 x 76mm (2 x 76mm), 35mm CIWS (35mm CIWS)
The new design will not be equipped with degaussing systems to reduce the magnetic signature (which was specified in the original contract). Janes speculates that the fit has been reduced to 'mitigate against possible performance risks that may arise from deploying an unproven varient of the Arrowhead 140 design'.
These design changes are not agreed between PT PAL and Indonesian MOD, however the clock is now ticking and PT PAL have 69 months to deliver both ships.
(BOLD are the April specs for comparison)
The new spec is 140m long (143.57m), 4x8200kW engines (4x9100kW engines), 27kt top speed, (28kt top speed), 8248nm range (9000nm range), no bow thruster (bow thruster)
In terms of weapons fit ...
12 VLS for MRSAM (24 VLS), 12 VLS for LRSAM (32 VLS), 16 VLS for SSM (16 VLS), 2 x 76mm (2 x 76mm), 35mm CIWS (35mm CIWS)
The new design will not be equipped with degaussing systems to reduce the magnetic signature (which was specified in the original contract). Janes speculates that the fit has been reduced to 'mitigate against possible performance risks that may arise from deploying an unproven varient of the Arrowhead 140 design'.
These design changes are not agreed between PT PAL and Indonesian MOD, however the clock is now ticking and PT PAL have 69 months to deliver both ships.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Thanks. It is a £5,700,000 contract by MOD, not by Babcock, which means this is GFX.jonas wrote:Friend orf Foe contract awarded :-
https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2021/W40/760414559
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Interesting figures for comparison Babcock quote for the T31Defiance wrote:The full article outlines some that Babcock have provided a spec smaller and less heavily armed than originally intended in the Sept licence agreement compared to the April 2020 contract.
(BOLD are the April specs for comparison)
The new spec is 140m long (143.57m), 4x8200kW engines (4x9100kW engines), 27kt top speed, (28kt top speed), 8248nm range (9000nm range), no bow thruster (bow thruster)
In terms of weapons fit ...
12 VLS for MRSAM (24 VLS), 12 VLS for LRSAM (32 VLS), 16 VLS for SSM (16 VLS), 2 x 76mm (2 x 76mm), 35mm CIWS (35mm CIWS)
The new design will not be equipped with degaussing systems to reduce the magnetic signature (which was specified in the original contract). Janes speculates that the fit has been reduced to 'mitigate against possible performance risks that may arise from deploying an unproven varient of the Arrowhead 140 design'.
These design changes are not agreed between PT PAL and Indonesian MOD, however the clock is now ticking and PT PAL have 69 months to deliver both ships.
138.7m LOA, 19.8m max beam, 5.0m design draft, 6,000+te displacement, 32+MW MDE, 28+knots
The Danish figures for the Iver Huitfeldt
138.7m LOA, 19.8m max beam, 5.8m design draft, 6.45m max draught, 5,452t design displacement, 6,649t max displacement, ~1,200t
weapons and deadweight, 29.3 knots at design draught, endurance, design draught 9,300 nm (18 knots, seastate 0)
The length Indonesian variant is longer than IH and T31, wondering what's the driver
The MTU 20V 8000 M71 rated at 8,200 kW whereas 71L 9,100 kW, so moved to less expensive option
The max speed 27 knots re MikeKiloPapa noted "F362 Peter Willemoes was clocked at 31 knots during sea trials" with its four M71s, 8200 kw each. "ship maximum speed is almost always defined at 90% MCR at vessel full load displacement. Which in IHs case is 28 Kts at 6645t, projected to fall down to 26.7Kts with a 10 % lightship displacement increase".
The impression is that it the changes made to keep within the budget of $720 million for the two ships, $360 million per ship, ~£225 million each, makes the T31 look expensive at ~£400 million, but we don't know if comparing apples to apples.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Originally posted on Type 26 thread, then realised it had sod all to do with Type 26:
As already said, just by nature of the hugely increased internal volume, far more opportunities for offboard systems and future growth. There will also be huge improvements in habitability with fewer crew required for a much larger platform, which I know doesn't mean anything if all you're interested in is counting missiles. It does matter if you're interested in recruiting and retention.
Greater endurance and range, which counts if you're forward deployed.
And as for the fantasy fleet list above. There is nothing inherent in the Type 31 design that stops it having a hull-mounted sonar, anti-ship missiles or more CAMM. There are big margins to accommodate them. And don't forget some Type 23s are carrying hull mounted sonar but not the crew to operate them and most Type 23s seem to be operating currently without Harpoon.
As for the Type 23's gun. It's a 1970s one trick pony. How much use would it be against a drone swarm? It's a trade-off because everything is, but the gun armament on Type 31 will be fantastically more adaptable than on Type 23, with programmable ammunition already here and the prospect of guided ammunition in the future, which the Mk 8 is never going to have.
As for the propulsion. It will be far simpler and robust than the Type 23s. It's not meant to be a specialist anti-sub platform.
But more than anything, Type 23 availability has been dreadful for the last several year, partly because of the need for power upgrades because the systems onboard can't cope.
Vice Admiral Chris Gardner, Director General Ships, was interviewed last week and said about Type 31 (and I precis):
We will insert capability into those platforms throughout life... it will genuinely work.... the maintainability and the supportability of that platform, just by virtue of the design being simpler and cheaper creates room for me to be able to provide a better support solution for the same amount of money that I’m currently spending on Type 23s... that will drive up overall availability which means we can sweat the asset harder with the crewing model that we’ll be moving to.
https://www.rnrmc.org.uk/news/audience- ... is-gardner
In other words, if you're running a navy, being able to get ships at sea counts.
Such a fantasy fleetist response.Poiuytrewq wrote:Tempest414 wrote:
What are talking about…
- The T31 will not be fitted with a hull mounted sonar.
- The 57mm will not be suitable for NGS unlike the Mk8 or the Mk45.
- The T31 will have a hull that is not acoustically optimised and noisy CODAD propulsion. Unlike the T23 or the T26.
- The T31 will not be fitted with any AShM.
-The T31 will have 12CAMM as opposed to 32 on the T23 and 48 on the T26.
…in some areas will be more advanced than the T-23 GP's
Which areas are those?
As already said, just by nature of the hugely increased internal volume, far more opportunities for offboard systems and future growth. There will also be huge improvements in habitability with fewer crew required for a much larger platform, which I know doesn't mean anything if all you're interested in is counting missiles. It does matter if you're interested in recruiting and retention.
Greater endurance and range, which counts if you're forward deployed.
And as for the fantasy fleet list above. There is nothing inherent in the Type 31 design that stops it having a hull-mounted sonar, anti-ship missiles or more CAMM. There are big margins to accommodate them. And don't forget some Type 23s are carrying hull mounted sonar but not the crew to operate them and most Type 23s seem to be operating currently without Harpoon.
As for the Type 23's gun. It's a 1970s one trick pony. How much use would it be against a drone swarm? It's a trade-off because everything is, but the gun armament on Type 31 will be fantastically more adaptable than on Type 23, with programmable ammunition already here and the prospect of guided ammunition in the future, which the Mk 8 is never going to have.
As for the propulsion. It will be far simpler and robust than the Type 23s. It's not meant to be a specialist anti-sub platform.
But more than anything, Type 23 availability has been dreadful for the last several year, partly because of the need for power upgrades because the systems onboard can't cope.
Vice Admiral Chris Gardner, Director General Ships, was interviewed last week and said about Type 31 (and I precis):
We will insert capability into those platforms throughout life... it will genuinely work.... the maintainability and the supportability of that platform, just by virtue of the design being simpler and cheaper creates room for me to be able to provide a better support solution for the same amount of money that I’m currently spending on Type 23s... that will drive up overall availability which means we can sweat the asset harder with the crewing model that we’ll be moving to.
https://www.rnrmc.org.uk/news/audience- ... is-gardner
In other words, if you're running a navy, being able to get ships at sea counts.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
So the Type 31 is newer and built to newer habitability standards but has a simple, commercial grade propulsion system. Oh yes, and could possibly be fitted with kit to make it a proper frigate.RichardIC wrote:Originally posted on Type 26 thread, then realised it had sod all to do with Type 26:
Such a fantasy fleetist response.Poiuytrewq wrote:Tempest414 wrote:
What are talking about…
- The T31 will not be fitted with a hull mounted sonar.
- The 57mm will not be suitable for NGS unlike the Mk8 or the Mk45.
- The T31 will have a hull that is not acoustically optimised and noisy CODAD propulsion. Unlike the T23 or the T26.
- The T31 will not be fitted with any AShM.
-The T31 will have 12CAMM as opposed to 32 on the T23 and 48 on the T26.
…in some areas will be more advanced than the T-23 GP's
Which areas are those?
As already said, just by nature of the hugely increased internal volume, far more opportunities for offboard systems and future growth. There will also be huge improvements in habitability with fewer crew required for a much larger platform, which I know doesn't mean anything if all you're interested in is counting missiles. It does matter if you're interested in recruiting and retention.
Greater endurance and range, which counts if you're forward deployed.
And as for the fantasy fleet list above. There is nothing inherent in the Type 31 design that stops it having a hull-mounted sonar, anti-ship missiles or more CAMM. There are big margins to accommodate them. And don't forget some Type 23s are carrying hull mounted sonar but not the crew to operate them and most Type 23s seem to be operating currently without Harpoon.
As for the Type 23's gun. It's a 1970s one trick pony. How much use would it be against a drone swarm? It's a trade-off because everything is, but the gun armament on Type 31 will be fantastically more adaptable than on Type 23, with programmable ammunition already here and the prospect of guided ammunition in the future, which the Mk 8 is never going to have.
As for the propulsion. It will be far simpler and robust than the Type 23s. It's not meant to be a specialist anti-sub platform.
But more than anything, Type 23 availability has been dreadful for the last several year, partly because of the need for power upgrades because the systems onboard can't cope.
Vice Admiral Chris Gardner, Director General Ships, was interviewed last week and said about Type 31 (and I precis):
We will insert capability into those platforms throughout life... it will genuinely work.... the maintainability and the supportability of that platform, just by virtue of the design being simpler and cheaper creates room for me to be able to provide a better support solution for the same amount of money that I’m currently spending on Type 23s... that will drive up overall availability which means we can sweat the asset harder with the crewing model that we’ll be moving to.
https://www.rnrmc.org.uk/news/audience- ... is-gardner
In other words, if you're running a navy, being able to get ships at sea counts.
Not exactly a glowing recommendation.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Not sure what you mean by that yes it doesn't have GTs but the diesels are the highest power engines that MTU supply.Ron5 wrote:commercial grade propulsion system.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
I didn't realise the t31 had a single prop driven by a low speed diesel engine until you said it had a commercial grade propulsion systemRon5 wrote:
So the Type 31 is newer and built to newer habitability standards but has a simple, commercial grade propulsion system. Oh yes, and could possibly be fitted with kit to make it a proper frigate.
Not exactly a glowing recommendation.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
I should really have said agricultural. Four diesels linked by mechanical gearboxes to double shafts doesn't exactly scream state of the art. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other credible modern frigates with CODAD.tomuk wrote:Not sure what you mean by that yes it doesn't have GTs but the diesels are the highest power engines that MTU supply.Ron5 wrote:commercial grade propulsion system.
Our Danish correspondent says that Babcock's/OMT offered other propulsion choices such as a hybrid diesel/diesel electric, but were turned down.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
No commercial twin shafts ????Bongodog wrote:I didn't realise the t31 had a single prop driven by a low speed diesel engine until you said it had a commercial grade propulsion systemRon5 wrote:
So the Type 31 is newer and built to newer habitability standards but has a simple, commercial grade propulsion system. Oh yes, and could possibly be fitted with kit to make it a proper frigate.
Not exactly a glowing recommendation.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Ron5-san, there are several of frigates with CODAD. Of course, if you think they are "credible" or not is tricky, I agree.Ron5 wrote:I should really have said agricultural. Four diesels linked by mechanical gearboxes to double shafts doesn't exactly scream state of the art. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other credible modern frigates with CODAD.
Our Danish correspondent says that Babcock's/OMT offered other propulsion choices such as a hybrid diesel/diesel electric, but were turned down.
French FDI and Cassard class AAW frigate are CODAD.
Danish IH-class and RN T31 class are CODAD.
Turkish Yavz-class (the first MEKO200 frigates) is CODAD.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
I also said "modern"donald_of_tokyo wrote:Ron5-san, there are several of frigates with CODAD. Of course, if you think they are "credible" or not is tricky, I agree.Ron5 wrote:I should really have said agricultural. Four diesels linked by mechanical gearboxes to double shafts doesn't exactly scream state of the art. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other credible modern frigates with CODAD.
Our Danish correspondent says that Babcock's/OMT offered other propulsion choices such as a hybrid diesel/diesel electric, but were turned down.
French FDI and Cassard class AAW frigate are CODAD.
Danish IH-class and RN T31 class are CODAD.
Turkish Yavz-class (the first MEKO200 frigates) is CODAD.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Oh, in that case, IH/T31 and French FDI frigates. To say, some fraction of modern frigates adopts CODAD. Still it is a minor fraction, but non-negligible, I think. Thanks.Ron5 wrote:I also said "modern"
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
BAE USA 28th October PR, awarded $26 million contract for two Mk110 /Bofors 57mm Mk3 for the first two of the new USN Constellation frigates, so approx £10 million each for T31s Bofors 57mm
Approx weight of shells 57mm 5.3 lbs/2.4 kg // Mark 8 4.5" 46 lbs/20.9 kg // Mk45 5" 67.6 lbs/30.7 kg
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/5 ... s-frigates
Approx weight of shells 57mm 5.3 lbs/2.4 kg // Mark 8 4.5" 46 lbs/20.9 kg // Mk45 5" 67.6 lbs/30.7 kg
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/5 ... s-frigates
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
The "agriculture diesels", MTU 20V 8000 M71's , as used in the T31 and powered the IH Peter Willemoes to 31 knots in trials don't breakdown with embarrassing regularity as in the most "modern" T45 with its advanced integrated electric propulsion system with its intercooled recuperated gas turbines which seem to spend most of their time tied up to the pier and costing hundreds of £millions for repairs, mods and updates over many, many years.donald_of_tokyo wrote:Oh, in that case, IH/T31 and French FDI frigates. To say, some fraction of modern frigates adopts CODAD. Still it is a minor fraction, but non-negligible, I think. Thanks.Ron5 wrote:I also said "modern"
HMS Diamond suffers serious defect during Carrier Strike Group deployment
https://www.navylookout.com/hms-diamond ... eployment/
Royal Navy warship heads for repairs after four years in port
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... e-58571232
.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Looks like the contract covers three systems - two for US Navy and one for USCG. But Babcock have placed their order from the Swedish production line.NickC wrote:BAE USA 28th October PR, awarded $26 million contract for two Mk110 /Bofors 57mm Mk3 for the first two of the new USN Constellation frigates, so approx £10 million each for T31s Bofors 57mm
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Though the PR mentions three systems, one for the USCG PR it does say "BAE Systems has received a $26 million contract to equip the (two) U.S. Navy’s Constellation class frigates with the fully-automatic 57mm Mk 110 naval gun"RichardIC wrote:Looks like the contract covers three systems - two for US Navy and one for USCG. But Babcock have placed their order from the Swedish production line.NickC wrote:BAE USA 28th October PR, awarded $26 million contract for two Mk110 /Bofors 57mm Mk3 for the first two of the new USN Constellation frigates, so approx £10 million each for T31s Bofors 57mm
USN procures the weapon systems for USCG, but funded from USCG budget, USN FY22 budget yet to be approved by Congress includes third Constellation quotes $12.75 million for the Mk 48 Gun Weapon System which understand include the Mk110 57mm gun and its Mk160 gun computer system.
You say Babcock specified Swedish manufacture which does surprise me as the Babcock driver was the the lowest cost possible and it wouldn't matter if sourced from either Sweden or US. Perhaps Sweden was lowest cost option compared to US or maybe export permission easier to obtain from Sweden, would have thought best leaving BAE with choice to source from either its Swedish or US plants.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
As the T31 is for export if I was Babcock I would keep well away from any ITAR/FMS issues.NickC wrote:
You say Babcock specified Swedish manufacture which does surprise me as the Babcock driver was the the lowest cost possible and it wouldn't matter if sourced from either Sweden or US. Perhaps Sweden was lowest cost option compared to US or maybe export permission easier to obtain from Sweden, would have thought best leaving BAE with choice to source from either its Swedish or US plants.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Sigh. Here we go again.NickC wrote:The "agriculture diesels", MTU 20V 8000 M71's , as used in the T31 and powered the IH Peter Willemoes to 31 knots in trials don't breakdown with embarrassing regularity as in the most "modern" T45 with its advanced integrated electric propulsion system with its intercooled recuperated gas turbines which seem to spend most of their time tied up to the pier and costing hundreds of £millions for repairs, mods and updates over many, many years.donald_of_tokyo wrote:Oh, in that case, IH/T31 and French FDI frigates. To say, some fraction of modern frigates adopts CODAD. Still it is a minor fraction, but non-negligible, I think. Thanks.Ron5 wrote:I also said "modern"
HMS Diamond suffers serious defect during Carrier Strike Group deployment
https://www.navylookout.com/hms-diamond ... eployment/
Royal Navy warship heads for repairs after four years in port
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... e-58571232
.
I didn't say the diesels were agricultural, I said the CODAD system in the Type 31's was agricultural.
Nice job using this as an opportunity to slag off UK military yet again (eyes roll)
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
The Swedish guns are cheaper. They are manufactured in the US to support US goals that have nothing to do with the UK.NickC wrote:Though the PR mentions three systems, one for the USCG PR it does say "BAE Systems has received a $26 million contract to equip the (two) U.S. Navy’s Constellation class frigates with the fully-automatic 57mm Mk 110 naval gun"RichardIC wrote:Looks like the contract covers three systems - two for US Navy and one for USCG. But Babcock have placed their order from the Swedish production line.NickC wrote:BAE USA 28th October PR, awarded $26 million contract for two Mk110 /Bofors 57mm Mk3 for the first two of the new USN Constellation frigates, so approx £10 million each for T31s Bofors 57mm
USN procures the weapon systems for USCG, but funded from USCG budget, USN FY22 budget yet to be approved by Congress includes third Constellation quotes $12.75 million for the Mk 48 Gun Weapon System which understand include the Mk110 57mm gun and its Mk160 gun computer system.
You say Babcock specified Swedish manufacture which does surprise me as the Babcock driver was the the lowest cost possible and it wouldn't matter if sourced from either Sweden or US. Perhaps Sweden was lowest cost option compared to US or maybe export permission easier to obtain from Sweden, would have thought best leaving BAE with choice to source from either its Swedish or US plants.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
The US production line removes any issues of "Not invented/built here".