Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote:As said a hundred time if T-31 were to get 24 CAMM , 8 x SSGW , Hull sonar and a good decoy fit they would be a very good global patrol frigate
JohnM wrote:Couldn’t agree more… and I think they eventually will… a lot of that (decoys, SSM) can cascade down from the T23s as they decommission and a basic sonar is cheap (the T45 one is less than £5M a pop)…
The 8 sets of T23 towed and bow sonars are going to the Type 26's.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Ron5 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:One thing I was really happy is, addition of SeaSentor torpedo defense system. You can see the decoy launcher added on the bridge.
I may be wrong but I thought they were mission fitted. So not part of the base ship but craned on from a warehouse as the ship leaves to go someplace dangerous. Like the Phalanx & Harpoon.
You are right. I've read somewhere that there are 19 SeaSentor systems.

But, you cannot install in on ship without preparation. For example, it will be much better to integrates its sensor output to CMS. At least, you need to wire all the callings.

As such, I understand there are ships which can carry SeaSentor and ship cannot. Also note that there are two-level of systems in SeaSentor. I understand the basic one has towed sensor and decoy, and higher-grade one is added with decoy launcher.

Searching for info.
Summary:
https://www.ultra.group/media/2421/ultr ... y-2021.pdf

Youtube:

But, .... Anti Torpedo Torpedo??? Really? (may be just future plan?)

JohnM
Donator
Posts: 155
Joined: 15 Apr 2020, 19:39
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Ron5 wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:As said a hundred time if T-31 were to get 24 CAMM , 8 x SSGW , Hull sonar and a good decoy fit they would be a very good global patrol frigate
JohnM wrote:Couldn’t agree more… and I think they eventually will… a lot of that (decoys, SSM) can cascade down from the T23s as they decommission and a basic sonar is cheap (the T45 one is less than £5M a pop)…
The 8 sets of T23 towed and bow sonars are going to the Type 26's.
Nope, the RN has bought three new sonar sets for the T26, so there will be three left over from the T23s...

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote:Two things:

1) Who are the Admiral(s) with Ben Wallace? The ones wearing dark headgear? Poles? Greeks?
From the MoD:
Pictured left to right: Will Erith (Babcock Marine Chief Executive), Jeremy Quinn:Minister of Defence Procurement, Vice Admiral Nick Hine CB (Second Sea Lord), Ben Wallace (Secretary of State for Defence)

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote:
tomuk wrote:Two things:

1) Who are the Admiral(s) with Ben Wallace? The ones wearing dark headgear? Poles? Greeks?
From the MoD:
Pictured left to right: Will Erith (Babcock Marine Chief Executive), Jeremy Quinn:Minister of Defence Procurement, Vice Admiral Nick Hine CB (Second Sea Lord), Ben Wallace (Secretary of State for Defence)
Submariners of course.

Anthony58
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: 14 Feb 2021, 19:23
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Anthony58 »

Thanks Ron5

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

JohnM wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:As said a hundred time if T-31 were to get 24 CAMM , 8 x SSGW , Hull sonar and a good decoy fit they would be a very good global patrol frigate
JohnM wrote:Couldn’t agree more… and I think they eventually will… a lot of that (decoys, SSM) can cascade down from the T23s as they decommission and a basic sonar is cheap (the T45 one is less than £5M a pop)…
The 8 sets of T23 towed and bow sonars are going to the Type 26's.
Nope, the RN has bought three new sonar sets for the T26, so there will be three left over from the T23s...
If you think through why the extra sets were bought, you'll see why T23 transfers won't be able to help the T31 program much.

JohnM
Donator
Posts: 155
Joined: 15 Apr 2020, 19:39
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

No, they won’t, that’s not what I was saying…
they’re not going into the T31s… I was answering your statement that they were going to the T26s… Batch 1 will get the new sonars, Batch 2 will probably get 5 of the 8 existing sets and in the end there will be 3 sets left over… I find it more likely they’ll eventually make their way to the T32s, whatever that turns out to be… if the T31s get a HMS, it will probably be a new, relatively limited and cheap(ish) set, like the T45…

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Having eleven sets for eight vessels should mean that there will always be one available for each ship with the other three in repair or overhaul. That would allow for the maximum availability of the T-26 in times of tension or worse. As for the T-31, lets just get them in the water and under the White Ensign first before we try to add everything but the kitchen sink. The Navy probably already has a secret "Wish list", typed up and in some cabinet somewhere. :D

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

JohnM wrote:No, they won’t, that’s not what I was saying…
they’re not going into the T31s… I was answering your statement that they were going to the T26s… Batch 1 will get the new sonars, Batch 2 will probably get 5 of the 8 existing sets and in the end there will be 3 sets left over… I find it more likely they’ll eventually make their way to the T32s, whatever that turns out to be… if the T31s get a HMS, it will probably be a new, relatively limited and cheap(ish) set, like the T45…
Apologies, I misunderstood.

PS They could actually have the T45 sonars, not being used right now due to skill shortages :D

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Daily Telegraph is reporting the French won the Greek frigate competition over the "favored American bid".
France hails defence deal with Greece as leap towards 'European strategic autonomy'

Europe must stop being 'naive' about defending its interests, says President Emmanuel Macron in wake of Aukus row
By Henry Samuel Paris and Nick Squires Rome 28 September 2021 • 11:02am

Greece has signed a deal with France to buy at least three frigates for €3bn Credit: Shutterstock

France on Tuesday hailed "an audacious first step towards European strategic autonomy" as it signed a €3bn (£2.6bn) "strategic partnership" with Greece in the aftermath of a diplomatic row between France and Australia over a nuclear submarine deal.

The deal for at least three French frigates was signed in Paris, where French President Emmanuel Macron said that Europe must "stop being naive" about defending its interests and build its own military capacity.

The deal, which Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis called "a historic day for Greece and France", came barely a week after France was frozen out of a €56bn submarine deal with Australia, which instead plumped for nuclear-powered submarines provided by the US and Britain as part of the new Aukus security partnership.

The shock U-turn sparked fury in France at being "stabbed in the back" by key allies and eventually led to a placatory statement from US President Joe Biden, who recognised "the importance of a stronger and more capable European defence, that contributes positively to transatlantic and global security and is complementary to Nato".

Mr Macron has long insisted that Europe needs to develop its own defence capabilities and no longer be so reliant on the US.

Breaking his silence for the first time since the submarine spat, Mr Macron seized the opportunity to urge for more European autonomy as the US increasingly "pivots" its interests towards China and the Indo-Pacific.

"The Europeans must stop being naive," said the French president. "When we are under pressure from powers, which at times harden (their stance), we need to react and show that we have the power and capacity to defend ourselves. Not escalating things, but protecting ourselves."

Emmanuel Macron said that Europe must not be 'naive' about defending itself, as he hailed the Greek pact as leap forward for European 'strategic autonomy' Credit: Shutterstock

But he insisted: "This isn't an alternative to the United States alliance. It's not a substitution, but to take responsibility of the European pillar within Nato and draw the conclusions that we are asked to take care of our own protection."

The loss of the submarine deal struck a hammer blow not just to France’s defence industry, but also its attempts to steer a third way in the Indo-Pacific between the US and China.

However, Mr Macron insisted that the US-Australia pact would "have no effect" on its strategic course.

"We have one million fellow citizens who live in this region, and over 8,000 soldiers deployed there," he said, referring to France's presence through overseas territories such as New Caledonia and French Polynesia.

Under Tuesday's agreement, Athens agreed to buy three frigates with an option to buy a fourth for about €3bn, said Greek government officials.

The accord, part of a broader strategic military and defence cooperation pact, comes after Athens had already ordered some 24 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets this year, making it the first EU country to buy the fighter jet.

"This will tie us for decades," said Mr Mitsotakis. "This opens the door to the Europe of tomorrow that is strong and autonomous, capable of defending its interests."

Mr Mitsotakis called Athens' decision to buy the Belharra ships "a sign of confidence" in France's defence industry, against competition notably from the American group Lockheed Martin.

He said the French deal would not affect a defence cooperation agreement under discussion between Greece and the US.

The deal between Paris and Athens can be seen as a reaction to the Aukus accord between Britain, the US and Australia and a tilt toward a common European defence policy, said Angelos Chryssogelos, an associate fellow at Chatham House in London.

The Greek government had initially been expected to buy US-made warships before opting for the French frigates.

“From the Greek perspective, the Aukus deal signaled that the US is committed more and more to the Indo-Pacific region,” he told The Telegraph.

“Traditionally, we have relied on the US as a security umbrella to guarantee that Greece and Turkey will never go to war.

“But it dawned on Greece, as it did for other European countries, that you can’t rely on the US for a long-term presence.”

There is speculation in the Greek press that to assuage France’s anger over the Aukus submarine deal, the Americans threw them a bone by granting them the frigate contract with Greece.

“The Greek government narrative is that this should be seen through the framework of European strategic autonomy, the idea that Europeans have to do more in terms of defence,” said Dr Chryssogelos. “Both France and Greece will be able to present this as the nucleus of joint European defence capabilities.

“Given that there is a political vacuum in Germany after the elections, it is also a golden opportunity for France to reassert a leadership role.”

The France-Greece deal follows recent tensions between Greece and Turkey.

However, Mr Macron insisted the accord did not target a country specifically, but that as the outer border of the European Union, Greece needed to be protected.

"I don't get the feeling that in the summer of 2020 it was Greece that was bellicose in the eastern Mediterranean," Mr Macron said, alluding to Turkish actions in the region.

"As Europeans, it is our duty to show solidarity with members states. It is legitimate that we commit to equipping it so it can ensure its territorial integrity is respected and that we commit to cooperating to protect it in case of intrusions, attacks or aggression."

On Sunday, President Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey - a Nato member - said he still intended to buy a second batch of S-400 missile defence systems from Russia, a move that could trigger fresh US sanctions.

Washington says the S-400s pose a threat to its F-35 fighter jets and to Nato's broader defence systems. Turkey says it was unable to procure air defence systems from any Nato ally on satisfactory terms.

"In the future, nobody will be able to interfere in terms of what kind of defence systems we acquire, from which country at what level," Mr Erdogan told CBS.

"Nobody can interfere with that. We are the only ones to make such decisions."

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:Daily Telegraph is reporting the French won the Greek frigate competition over the "favored American bid".
Always thought the Italian or Dutch bids were ahead of Lockheeds

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Daily Telegraph is reporting the French won the Greek frigate competition over the "favored American bid".
Always thought the Italian or Dutch bids were ahead of Lockheeds
Yes, I thought it was firmly in last place but this story is sourced from the French. 3 billion euro for 3 small frigates is also pretty unbelievable. I think we can be pretty sure there's some "interesting" financials behind it.

And hidden somewhere in the stories are that this isn't an order, just an MOU committing to negotiations. So we'll see what emerges.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Ron5 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Daily Telegraph is reporting the French won the Greek frigate competition over the "favored American bid".
Always thought the Italian or Dutch bids were ahead of Lockheeds
Yes, I thought it was firmly in last place but this story is sourced from the French. 3 billion euro for 3 small frigates is also pretty unbelievable. I think we can be pretty sure there's some "interesting" financials behind it.

And hidden somewhere in the stories are that this isn't an order, just an MOU committing to negotiations. So we'll see what emerges.
Can you imagine the fuss if the Greeks pull put later and go with another option (especially. If it's US or UK)! Macron would have a Connery...

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

dmereifield wrote:Can you imagine the fuss if the Greeks pull put later and go with another option (especially. If it's US or UK)! Macron would have a Connery...
I don't think they will, close ties to France, Rafale, Mirage 2000 etc. France were the only EU country that really backed them in the perennial arguments with Turkey..

Mind you it probably strengthens the UK/Turkey relationship as a result...not sure how much of a good thing that is though. The German's have problems in both Greece and Turkey.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Can you imagine the fuss if the Greeks pull put later and go with another option (especially. If it's US or UK)! Macron would have a Connery...
I don't think they will, close ties to France, Rafale, Mirage 2000 etc. France were the only EU country that really backed them in the perennial arguments with Turkey..

Mind you it probably strengthens the UK/Turkey relationship as a result...not sure how much of a good thing that is though. The German's have problems in both Greece and Turkey.
More to do with how much Greek debt France is holding.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Timmymagic wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Can you imagine the fuss if the Greeks pull put later and go with another option (especially. If it's US or UK)! Macron would have a Connery...
I don't think they will, close ties to France, Rafale, Mirage 2000 etc. France were the only EU country that really backed them in the perennial arguments with Turkey..

Mind you it probably strengthens the UK/Turkey relationship as a result...not sure how much of a good thing that is though. The German's have problems in both Greece and Turkey.
Seems unlikely but depends how hard France pushes its luck in the negotiations in the coming months as the price keeps edging up and the Greek industrial content shrinks...

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Interesting though this thread is, it is getting well off topic. Maybe it should continue on the Greece thread?

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

Ron5 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Daily Telegraph is reporting the French won the Greek frigate competition over the "favored American bid".
Always thought the Italian or Dutch bids were ahead of Lockheeds
Yes, I thought it was firmly in last place but this story is sourced from the French. 3 billion euro for 3 small frigates is also pretty unbelievable. I think we can be pretty sure there's some "interesting" financials behind it.

And hidden somewhere in the stories are that this isn't an order, just an MOU committing to negotiations. So we'll see what emerges.
I'm assuming this is a headline / PR figure and the real amount paid if any will be linked to EU budget negotiations / Covid recovery fund. France holds 43 billion of Greek debt.

BB85
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 09 Sep 2021, 20:17
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by BB85 »

France ordered 5 for €2.1bn back in 2017 according to wiki. So the number is complete bs unless the Greeks are willingly getting robbed or as you said it forms part of a wider EU financial package.

inch
Senior Member
Posts: 1311
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by inch »

Yes well we know about France and price inflation for vessels lol

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

BB85 wrote:France ordered 5 for €2.1bn back in 2017 according to wiki. So the number is complete bs unless the Greeks are willingly getting robbed or as you said it forms part of a wider EU financial package.
FDI frigate is €1.7B Euro for R&D, and €2.1B for building 5 hulls, in total €3.8B for 5 newly designed hulls. = €420M per hull for build only, €760M per hull for all.

If France accept not to share any R&D cost with Greek, then 3 hulls might be €1.3B on paper. If R&D shared, it will be €2.3B on paper.

By the way, I understand the €3B program includes 3 Gowind-2500 corvette/light-frigate locally built? If so, it will cost ~€1B (including local build infrastructure/management cost). If 3 FDI frigate needs ~€1.3B to ~€2.3B, it will leave €0.7B for something else, or nothing else.

By the way, T31 is £1.25B for 5 hulls build only without SeaCeptor. France decided to "steal" 2 (or 3?) of the FDI now building for French Navy for Greek export. If the same approach was taken, RN can decide to accept re-rolling the T31 now just started building for export, and accept a few years delay of RN delivery?

For export, French did this for Egypt a few years ago. Now they do (still on proposal) the same for Greek export this year. French Marine Natinale accepts their sacrifice for supporting export. Can RN accept the same? If needed, can T31 be delayed in favor of export?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Or all five of the T-31s on order could go for export and we could go straight to the T-32. :D

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Such an approach would make sense if the RN had a more regular, faster, drumbeat of escorts coming online....but of course they delayed the programmes so much (I.e. T26), have such a slow rate of build (T26), cancelled too many hulls (T45), have made poor choices leading to low availability (T45) that they have had to life extend old hulls (T23) and thus don't have much of a buffer to be able to accept delays by giving up their own hulls in production....

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3956
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

dmereifield wrote:....don't have much of a buffer to be able to accept delays by giving up their own hulls in production....
Don’t forget that builds in progress at Govan/Scotstoun, Rosyth and Barrow are working to an artificially slowed building schedule insisted upon by the treasury.

Plenty of spare capacity at Rosyth to build TWO A140’s concurrently if required.

Post Reply