Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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PoW Mascots!

[Bring Deeps]

Video can be found here:

@AOC_1_Group

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(ON THE ROGER) 1st November 2019
Video by Leading Photographer Dan Shepherd.

[inch]

Just a quick one with no real world relevance but could the UK have built a conventional carrier the size of the ford class in the UK or we never of had the infrastructure to do it ?I'm not saying the cash for it or need btw

[R686]

Just a quick one with no real world relevance but could the UK have built a conventional carrier the size of the ford class in the UK or we never of had the infrastructure to do it ?I'm not saying the cash for it or need btw

Of course you could, just needed to spend the extra to enlarge the docks, from memory it think they are good for 300m but what’s ford class 330+ meters?

[SW1]

H&W has one of the largest dry docks in the world and 2 Goliath cranes so the assembly capacity exists in theory

[Dahedd]

Can't see why not. One of the original designs for the QNLZ carriers was a good bit longer if I remember. Was a section not removed on cost grounds?

[SKB]

A 305 metre (1000 feet) long QE could have physically been built in Rosyth's Dock 1, as the drydock is 315 metres (1033 feet) long.

But instead we got two 280 metre (918 feet) long carriers.

And what would be the point of extra-long QE's? With the MoD budget as it is, the carriers wouldn't have had their plane numbers increased by much, if at all.

Btw, one F-35B is 15 metres (50 feet) long.

[serge750]

Back when the QEC were being talked about maybe the RN were being to optimistic and the roles changed from strike carriers with 36 x F35 + helicopters, since the 2010 cuts it's all about multi roles for them, for possible adaption to CATOBAR the longer size of the Alpha design would of benefited the CATOBAR operation but were they not built shorter just to save a lot of money?

If they were to carry even 20 x F35b and ASW+Crowsnest Hellicopters etc the air group would still be potent imo, ok not amerca potent but compared to most nations.

Maybe a large push every 5 years or so we might see a air group like this or with the USMC help?

[jcs1959]

Article in Sunday Telegraph by Chris Terrill on his 2 years aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth making Britain's biggest warship. Sadly behind a paywall.

[Roders96]

My two years on board Little Britain – the Navy's biggest warship



There is a microcosmic version of our country that sounds like it might exist in some parallel dimension or alternative plane. It is sovereign territory, but has no land borders and cannot be seen on any map. Its population is diverse, inclusive, altruistic, multi-racial, multi-faith, drug-free, relentlessly hard-working, resolutely upbeat and all but totally crimeless. Furthermore, no politicians or businessmen reside here and it remains virtually unaffected by Brexit.

Too good to be true? Not at all.


The ‘Little Britain’ I refer to is HMS Queen Elizabeth, at 65,000 tons the largest and most powerful warship ever built for the Royal Navy. She is phenomenally futuristic in her stealth design, cutting edge in her combat systems and boasts unprecedented levels of automation throughout.

But for all her sophistication and Star Wars technology the most vital and enabling resource at her disposal is exactly the same that Admiral Lord Nelson valued so highly on HMS Victory over 200 years ago: sailors.

HMS Queen Elizabeth is more than just a warship – she’s a vast floating community of some 1,200 souls who, whilst unswervingly British, have their own culture, social structure, codes of behaviour, conventions and customs. Hence my fascination as an anthropologist. Most of my fieldwork has been carried out living amongst the Nilotic tribes of Southern Sudan. But what would it be like, I wondered, to live on HMS Queen Elizabeth and become part of her ship’s company – a tribe by any other name.

To find out, I have spent two years on board to make a series of films for the BBC – the second of which will be shown tonight. It has been eye-opening, exciting, terrifying, uproarious, challenging and inspiring. The first time we went to sea in 2017 was to test the ship’s massive ‘power and propulsion’ systems in the North Sea – essentially to ensure she floated OK and could move through the water. Baby steps.

Since, we have embarked on a four month deployment across the Atlantic and testing everything and everybody to their limits so every has been an incredible adventure... or misadventure.



'We have evaded snooping Russian warships, landed the first F35 Stealth Fighters, suffered fires, floods and dangerous fuel leaks'
'We have evaded snooping Russian warships, landed the first F35 Stealth Fighters, suffered fires, floods and dangerous fuel leaks' CREDIT: DANIEL SHEPHERD BRITISH MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
We have evaded snooping Russian warships, landed the first F35 Stealth Fighters, suffered fires, floods and dangerous fuel leaks. For tonight’s episode of the series, viewers will see us sailing headlong into Hurricane Michael, the fourth most powerful anticyclone ever to impact the American coastline. This was not reckless navigation but a carefully executed mission to test the F35 jets’ ability to launch in to high winds. Exhilarating? Ask the remarkable test pilots. Better still, tune in yourself, but strap firmly into the sofa.

It hardly needs pointing out that the Queen Elizabeth is no cruise ship. The vast majority of the ship’s company live below deck and seldom emerge into the sunlight (there’s not a single porthole in the entire hull). The expansive flight deck (larger than three football fields) is a working airfield for helicopters and fixed wing aircraft so only aviators and aircraft handlers operate there.

Most people, about 1000, exist as troglodytes in a subterranean world spread over the nine decks below. It is an industrious, cooperative and compliant community drawn from all over the Commonwealth (some 20 nationalities are represented). There are engineers, gunners, stewards, medics, navigators, writers, intelligence operatives, chefs and marines. They work, rest and play in this vast under-deck space comprising 3,200 sunless compartments linked by nine kilometres of passageways.


For all the automation, this remains a dangerous place to inhabit. Full of fuel, ammunition, explosives and high voltage electricity, it only needs an aircraft to crash and penetrate the deck to compromise everyone’s safety. Damage control exercises are unremitting. Every man and woman know their roles in ‘emergency stations’ whether as firefighters, medics or stretcher bearers. These Britons look after each other – selflessly, courageously, indomitably.

I found myself part of a highly disciplined community with status and authority defined by rank but it never felt unduly authoritarian. A sailor’s superior was also their shipmate and therein lay a social equability seldom found in the other military services

The only man without rank was the naval Chaplain, Alastair Mansfield. He effectively assumed the rank of whomever he talked to, so always dealt with people on their own level. Mansfield was responsible for the spiritual and moral welfare of the ship’s company and catered for every faith on board from Islam and Hinduism to Rastafarianism and Judaism and even counted amongst his flock agnostics and atheists.

When we arrived towards the end of last year at the Naval Base in Norfolk, Virginia 250 American scientists and technicians joined the ship and added considerably to the cultural mix. It was an important preparation for the future. When the ship first deploys for active operations in 2021 she will not only sail with US escort ships but American aviators will be embarked as part of her ship’s company. The Queen Elizabeth is ushering in a new era of UK/US naval cooperation. The Americans call this ‘interoperability’ – an ugly word maybe but it will be key to survival in an increasingly dangerous world.



'HMS Queen Elizabeth sailed up the Hudson River to drop anchor within touching distance of Lower Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty'
'HMS Queen Elizabeth sailed up the Hudson River to drop anchor within touching distance of Lower Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty' CREDIT: ROYAL NAVY PHOTOGRAPHER
The US maybe the UK’s closest ally but the Brit sailors could not help ribbing the Americans especially in the dinner queue. They delighted in persuading the unwary newcomers that Black Pudding was a dessert and tasted much better with custard; that Toad in the Hole was a traditional British dish comprising battered amphibian and that a Haggis was a furry, vicious three legged animal native to Scotland. Mind you, the Americans gave as good as they got, especially when challenged over their continued use of Imperial measurements. “There are two types of countries,” I heard one laughing Texan tell a dumbfounded sailor. “Those that work in metric... and those that put a man on the Moon!”

Mid-deployment, the Queen Elizabeth sailed up the Hudson River to drop anchor within touching distance of Lower Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty. Here the ship transformed from a menacing ship of war to a dazzling diplomatic platform – a chunk of sovereign British territory parked in Uncle Sam’s backyard. America’s great and good were invited for a series of glittering receptions, cocktail parties and even a conference on Cyber Warfare. This was the Queen Elizabeth exerting ‘soft power’ through ‘defence engagement’.

Slowly but surely HMS Queen Elizabeth is coming of age. Her lethal potential is being realised but so, too, is her ability to reinforce and consolidate international relations. Soon she will be ready to project her awesome power globally as Britain’s main conventional strategic deterrent.

She will be active for 50 years – who knows what challenges her sailors will face in that time? And here’s a though; her final crew and captain have yet to be born.

Britain’s Biggest Warship is on tonight at 8pm on BBC TWO

[SKB]

Britain's Biggest Warship (S2E2) for those who missed it. Watch before its gone. Previous episode is one page back.

[Bring Deeps]

The RN must be very happy with that episode.

It helps put the stake through the heart of the 'rubbish plane/no plane' brigade and if the program doesn't encourage a few more people to sign up nothing will.

My only slight complaint was that there wasn't much of a focus on the female crew members.

Incidentally why does the RN still persist with different (and very dated) caps for women officers?

[RetroSicotte]

Incidentally why does the RN still persist with different (and very dated) caps for women officers?

While I can't speak for every woman in service, some I am told are VERY proud of the unique cap and are reluctant to want to replace it because of its history relating to how women stepped up and made their mark through performance and output in the service of the country. It lets them feel connected with the struggle to find where they are now.

[Timmymagic]

If they were to carry even 20 x F35b and ASW+Crowsnest Hellicopters etc the air group would still be potent imo, ok not amerca potent but compared to most nations.

I think we sometimes underplay just how much capability a UK CSG will have. It will have as much, if not more ASW capability than a US CSG. Arguably it will have a better CAP aircraft with F-35B with Meteor and Asraam CSP. And with 36 F-35B onboard it will have way more stealth fighters than any US carrier will have until 2040ish. Current US Carrier Air Wings are scheduled to have 10 F-35C onboard from 2025-30, and then only 20 F-35C onboard from 2030 onwards. It won't be until F/A-XX arrives (if it in fact ever does) c2040 that they will have more.

E-2D is certainly going to be more potent than Crowsnest, but by perhaps not as much as people think. EA-18G's are certainly a capability that a UK CSG will lack, perhaps not as necessary as a UK carrier air wing will be all F-35, but jamming support helps all platforms. Add in limited AAR and COD and overall a US airwing has the edge. But its not a gulf by any stretch.

And besides the thing we all ignore is that if the balloon really went up against an opponent where we really needed those capabilities we would be fighting with the USN. I'm sure any USN CSG would love to have a QE with 36 F-35B with Meteor and a load of Merlin HM.2 along for the ride.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Arguably it will have a better CAP aircraft with F-35B with Meteor and Asraam CSP

True, range of the former (to push out the protective bubble's perimeter; ref: the archers) and manoeurability of the latter, to shoot down the leakers, even if they are missiles. Ref: the arrows)

[Jake1992]

If they were to carry even 20 x F35b and ASW+Crowsnest Hellicopters etc the air group would still be potent imo, ok not amerca potent but compared to most nations.

I think we sometimes underplay just how much capability a UK CSG will have. It will have as much, if not more ASW capability than a US CSG. Arguably it will have a better CAP aircraft with F-35B with Meteor and Asraam CSP. And with 36 F-35B onboard it will have way more stealth fighters than any US carrier will have until 2040ish. Current US Carrier Air Wings are scheduled to have 10 F-35C onboard from 2025-30, and then only 20 F-35C onboard from 2030 onwards. It won't be until F/A-XX arrives c2040 that they will have more.

E-2D is certainly going to be more potent than Crowsnest, but by perhaps not as much as people think. EA-18G's are certainly a capability that a UK CSG will lack, perhaps not as necessary as a UK carrier air wing will be all F-35, but jamming support helps all platforms. Add in limited AAR and COD and overall a US airwing has the edge. But its not a gulf by any stretch.

And besides the thing we all ignore is that if the balloon really went up against an opponent where we really needed those capabilities we would be fighting with the USN. I'm sure any USN CSG would love to have a QE with 36 F-35B with Meteor and a load of Merlin HM.2 along for the ride.

In regards to the EA-18G could we go in with the USN and others at some point to allow an upgrade to the F35s to bring them up to a similar standard ( not the whole fleet just a few ) as the the USN will need need them replacing aswell as the likes of the RAAF. It would have to be across all 3 types as the USN would want Cs, the RAAF would want As and ourselves would want Bs but could this be done ?

Money will determine this but could we see down the line a fleet of V-22s for AAR and COD once the USN and USMC have done all the testing for each role along with a number for the RM since everything is being pushed further away from shore.

Another incoming innovation Iv been keeping an eye on as it really grabs me is the USMCs development of the AEW V-247, from what Iv read it’ll have similar capabilities to the E-C4s with a service ceiling of 24-30,000ft and an 11-15 hour on station time all while being the size of a merlin. Come 2030-2040 could this be the way to go ? There is also an attack variant being developed which would give a STOVL reaper capability.


If all of the above comes to pass I’d argue that a UK CSG would be just as capable as it’s US counterpart. It’ll all just depend on money.

[Timmymagic]

In regards to the EA-18G could we go in with the USN and others at some point to allow an upgrade to the F35s to bring them up to a similar standard ( not the whole fleet just a few ) as the the USN will need need them replacing aswell as the likes of the RAAF. It would have to be across all 3 types as the USN would want Cs, the RAAF would want As and ourselves would want Bs but could this be done ?

E/A-18G have at least another 30 years ahead of them. Even in the future an additional crew member is required for EW. There are no plans for a 2 seat F-35. By the time we reach the point where a second crew member is not required, the other crew member will not be required, so it will likely be a UAV replacement by then.

Money will determine this but could we see down the line a fleet of V-22s for AAR and COD once the USN and USMC have done all the testing for each role along with a number for the RM since everything is being pushed further away from shore.

Unless there is a huge increase in the defence budget this will never happen, particularly as the V-22 line will have shut before we have the cash (if we in fact ever do). Boeing have already advised any potential customers to form a queue now as the USN and USMC orders will be completed in fairly short order, and they're not going to keep the line open beyond that point. A good example would be the C-17 shutdown, only this time I don't think there will be any V-22 'whitetails'.

Another incoming innovation Iv been keeping an eye on as it really grabs me is the USMCs development of the AEW V-247, from what Iv read it’ll have similar capabilities to the E-C4s with a service ceiling of 24-30,000ft and an 11-15 hour on station time all while being the size of a merlin. Come 2030-2040 could this be the way to go ? There is also an attack variant being developed which would give a STOVL reaper capability.

On paper the V-247 looks convincing, but its a long time away and hasn't been selected yet. The real opportunity for the RN may be when the Merlin needs replacement...its not looking like it will be a UK or Italian solution at present. They need to be thinking long term now. Otherwise we're pretty much tied in to the US FVL proposals, capability wise maybe not a bad thing, but industrially disastrous.

[Jake1992]

In regards to the EA-18G could we go in with the USN and others at some point to allow an upgrade to the F35s to bring them up to a similar standard ( not the whole fleet just a few ) as the the USN will need need them replacing aswell as the likes of the RAAF. It would have to be across all 3 types as the USN would want Cs, the RAAF would want As and ourselves would want Bs but could this be done ?

E/A-18G have at least another 30 years ahead of them. Even in the future an additional crew member is required for EW. There are no plans for a 2 seat F-35. By the time we reach the point where a second crew member is not required, the other crew member will not be required, so it will likely be a UAV replacement by then.

Money will determine this but could we see down the line a fleet of V-22s for AAR and COD once the USN and USMC have done all the testing for each role along with a number for the RM since everything is being pushed further away from shore.

Unless there is a huge increase in the defence budget this will never happen, particularly as the V-22 line will have shut before we have a need. Boeing have already advised any potential customers to form a queue as the USN and USMC orders will be completed in fairly short order.

Another incoming innovation Iv been keeping an eye on as it really grabs me is the USMCs development of the AEW V-247, from what Iv read it’ll have similar capabilities to the E-C4s with a service ceiling of 24-30,000ft and an 11-15 hour on station time all while being the size of a merlin. Come 2030-2040 could this be the way to go ? There is also an attack variant being developed which would give a STOVL reaper capability.

On paper the V-247 looks convincing, but its a long time away and hasn't been selected yet. The real opportunity for the RN may be when the Merlin needs replacement...its not looking like it will be a UK or Italian solution at present. They need to be thinking long term now.

Thanks for the reply, I didn’t think the EA-18Gs had that long life left I am shocked by that.


The need for a V-22 capability is there already there ( COD, AAR, greater stand off for RMs ) the issue like we all agree is the money, this along with other areas needs to be where HMG take a real look and say ok we can’t do global Britain with out putting more money in, but I won’t hold my breath.

Things like the V-247 are the way forward in many areas that’s why I brought it up. As a like for like replacement of the whole merlin fleet I don’t think so but to replace and improve upon crows nest in AEW then yes but not in ASW I don’t believe and obviously not in troop transport. The timing is why I mentioned 2030-2040 as a target bringing it much closer to the merlin OSD along with giving ample time for development. With what you mentions above about the EA-18Gs I have found when looking at v-247 further that an EW version is to be developed to be put forward to a US army requirement.

[seaspear]

This is a bit out of left field but could a long range refueling drone be one of several launched from the actual tanker

[Bring Deeps]

Incidentally why does the RN still persist with different (and very dated) caps for women officers?

While I can't speak for every woman in service, some I am told are VERY proud of the unique cap and are reluctant to want to replace it because of its history relating to how women stepped up and made their mark through performance and output in the service of the country. It lets them feel connected with the struggle to find where they are now.

That's interesting, thanks.

An understandable sentiment but not entirely logical as the rest of the uniform looks unisex and the caps for ordinary rates are the same for male and female. I won't go on as it is OT.

[PhillyJ]

Looks like PWLS is making her way back to Invergordon (I can officially say that now it shows up on MarineTraffic!), scheduled as far as I'm aware, but only for a pitstop before she heads home to her new port.

[Timmymagic]

This is a bit out of left field but could a long range refueling drone be one of several launched from the actual tanker

From the Tide Class? Yes, if you were using a V-247 as a AAR platform. It would fit in a Tides hangar and the flightdeck is plenty big enough (never seen tiltrotors use a rolling takeoff). The V-247 is designed to have the same footprint as a UH-1Y.

But the same issue that plagues the V-22 as an AAR platform, but worse, comes up with the V-247. Fuel offload. A V-22 could offload around 9-10,000 lb of fuel at 150 miles range. But a V-247 is at most going to manage about 4,000 lb's. An F-35B has an internal fuel capacity of 13,500 lbs. So its not going to increase range for a great amount, or be able to do so for more than a couple of aircraft. For reference a Voyager can carry 240,000lbs +, 60 times as much fuel.

I just can't see the point of V-22 or V-247 as AAR platforms. CMV-22 for COD, CSAR and AAR as a small, limited bonus perhaps. V-247 for AEW, UCAV or ISTAR make sense. It just doesn't appear to come close to passing a cost/benefit analysis.