Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?
V tightly spaced: 2035-37
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Pseudo »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?
V tightly spaced: 2035-37
I know that's the plan but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they don't start being retired until 2040.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?
V tightly spaced: 2035-37
I know that's the plan but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they don't start being retired until 2040.
I could see the whole build of 6 ( or hopefully 8+ ) being stretched past 2040 but I can’t see the start date for introduction a the T4X being later than 2036 just down to the simple fact it’d leave a large build gap, the T26 build started 2017 even with one built ever 24 months and first in class taking 36 months odd we’d still be talking 2036 last delivery.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?
V tightly spaced: 2035-37
I know that's the plan but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they don't start being retired until 2040.
Completely agree. The last Type 26 won't be in the water until 2036. So the Type 4x will have to wait.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by seaspear »

Before then it would still be cheaper to provide the major upgrades to her that would increase the capacity and capability of this ship than a new build

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Pseudo »

Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?
V tightly spaced: 2035-37
I know that's the plan but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they don't start being retired until 2040.
I could see the whole build of 6 ( or hopefully 8+ ) being stretched past 2040 but I can’t see the start date for introduction a the T4X being later than 2036 just down to the simple fact it’d leave a large build gap, the T26 build started 2017 even with one built ever 24 months and first in class taking 36 months odd we’d still be talking 2036 last delivery.
I might be wrong, but AFAIK Glasgow is projected to enter service in 2027, so if there's an average gap of eighteen months between ships then the eighth should be entering service in 2038 which would make 2040 or 2041 a realistic in service date for the first T4X given the longer trials period typical for the first of class.

That'll put the last three Type 23's out of service before the last three Type 26's enter service but my guess is that the Type 32 will be a mothership for USV's which will provide offboard ASW capabilities. They might even be permanently employed on the likes of TAPS to allow the Type 26 to concentrate of carrier escort duties and other high profile taskings.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?
V tightly spaced: 2035-37
I know that's the plan but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they don't start being retired until 2040.
I could see the whole build of 6 ( or hopefully 8+ ) being stretched past 2040 but I can’t see the start date for introduction a the T4X being later than 2036 just down to the simple fact it’d leave a large build gap, the T26 build started 2017 even with one built ever 24 months and first in class taking 36 months odd we’d still be talking 2036 last delivery.
I might be wrong, but AFAIK Glasgow is projected to enter service in 2027, so if there's an average gap of eighteen months between ships then the eighth should be entering service in 2038 which would make 2040 or 2041 a realistic in service date for the first T4X given the longer trials period typical for the first of class.

That'll put the last three Type 23's out of service before the last three Type 26's enter service but my guess is that the Type 32 will be a mothership for USV's which will provide offboard ASW capabilities. They might even be permanently employed on the likes of TAPS to allow the Type 26 to concentrate of carrier escort duties and other high profile taskings.
Entering service is not the same as finishing build, the build would finish a good 12-18 months before it enters service as both builders and naval trails will need to take place along with any snags being sorted.

If the last T26 enters service in 2038 that means the build work has stoped around 2037 that would be a 3 year build gap that needs to be filled if by the first T4X, IMO that is just too stretched.

In regard to the last T23s going out of service with out replacement in time this gap couldn’t be filled by the T32/31 as the high end ASW will be needed for CSG and TAPs.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Pseudo »

Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?
V tightly spaced: 2035-37
I know that's the plan but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they don't start being retired until 2040.
I could see the whole build of 6 ( or hopefully 8+ ) being stretched past 2040 but I can’t see the start date for introduction a the T4X being later than 2036 just down to the simple fact it’d leave a large build gap, the T26 build started 2017 even with one built ever 24 months and first in class taking 36 months odd we’d still be talking 2036 last delivery.
I might be wrong, but AFAIK Glasgow is projected to enter service in 2027, so if there's an average gap of eighteen months between ships then the eighth should be entering service in 2038 which would make 2040 or 2041 a realistic in service date for the first T4X given the longer trials period typical for the first of class.

That'll put the last three Type 23's out of service before the last three Type 26's enter service but my guess is that the Type 32 will be a mothership for USV's which will provide offboard ASW capabilities. They might even be permanently employed on the likes of TAPS to allow the Type 26 to concentrate of carrier escort duties and other high profile taskings.
Entering service is not the same as finishing build, the build would finish a good 12-18 months before it enters service as both builders and naval trails will need to take place along with any snags being sorted.
Entering service isn't the same as finishing build but if the first T4X isn't entering service until 2041 then the first T45 won't be leaving service much before that.
If the last T26 enters service in 2038 that means the build work has stoped around 2037 that would be a 3 year build gap that needs to be filled if by the first T4X, IMO that is just too stretched.
Going by the T26 building programme for the first T4X to enter service in 2041 you'd likely be looking at starting construction around 2034 at the latest, which is two or three years before construction of the last T26 would be completed.
In regard to the last T23s going out of service with out replacement in time this gap couldn’t be filled by the T32/31 as the high end ASW will be needed for CSG and TAPs.
I think that it really depends on what the T32 is and what the RN's concept for ASW operations is by then. If as I suspect, it's going to be focused on a number of unmanned systems then the mothership might need not need to be much more than a command and control hub for those systems with the ability to defend itself, which could be provided as well by a general frigate with the necessary facilities as it could be by a high end ASW surface combatant.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pseudo wrote:Going by the T26 building programme for the first T4X to enter service in 2041 you'd likely be looking at starting construction around 2034 at the latest, which is two or three years before construction of the last T26 would be completed.
For this reason I have maintained for a while that the two batches will be dove-tailed towards the end of the T26 run
- under the assumption that the new AAW will be derived from the T26; likely, but not dead-cert
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »



(Navy Lookout) 11th February 2021
This week two type 45 destroyers were refloated after maintenance in dry dock at Portsmouth.

HMS Defender is in a planned maintenance period and will deploy with the UK Carrier Strike Group in May. HMS Duncan is in the middle of a major refit.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by cyrilranch »

As Dauntless is still in Liverpool for PIP since March last year, once done needs a year of FOST training to workup.and Daring still being in long term maintenance and training.
Duncan in refit. Prior to its world trip with Diamond (?).
That leaves us with Dragon and Defender as the only currently available ships to deploy.
That only 2 out 6 ships available at any one time .not good for the navy is it.

So later in the year we have 2 T45 in the far East, we will have possible on 1 in UK waters as the others will be in longterm refit or "training " due to lack effective management. PIP will take ship out of service for a year aleast at the rate they are going at moment.

So at the moment thee navy is smuggling to run a 12 ships out 19 let alone 24.
Just my thoughts at present. I think we have a increase in manpower in review as well as promising new ships to replace old ones. :?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

if the MCM vessels are getting cut that should free up a few crew to join the other ships in the fleet, i agree though about needing more crew through out the Royal navy especially as the escort fleet needs to get back to pre 2010 levels ( im not going to say "Grow the fleet" as its been cut a lot :crazy: ) if the newer ships require less crew then maybe this will help.

When the PIP upgrade finishes things should get to normal for the T45, hopefully to increase availability & reliability

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

serge750 wrote:if the MCM vessels are getting cut that should free up a few crew to join the other ships in the fleet, i agree though about needing more crew through out the Royal navy especially as the escort fleet needs to get back to pre 2010 levels ( im not going to say "Grow the fleet" as its been cut a lot :crazy: ) if the newer ships require less crew then maybe this will help.

When the PIP upgrade finishes things should get to normal for the T45, hopefully to increase availability & reliability
Jan 2020 Telegraph reported IstSL Adm Radakin's plan to halve the numbers (1,000) at HQ and redeploy them to front line, five of thirteen admirals at Whale Island to be replaced by more junior officers etc. Possible plan is making progress to provide additional crew numbers.

PS Italian Navy, Marina Militare, February 2021 awarded contract to Intermarine for a risk reduction study for a new generation MCM ships, 60 and 80 metres, shell composite material, with the hull in ultra-thick fibreglass without a reinforced frame.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

NickC wrote:Marina Militare, February 2021 awarded contract to Intermarine for a risk reduction study for a new generation MCM ships, 60 and 80 metres, shell composite material, with the hull in ultra-thick fibreglass without a reinforced frame.
They have already built three (so 3 months + a fee, to ponder how to add 7.5 meters... in a useful way) and the knowledge has also been spread, as in
"a training program organized by the NATO Mine Action Center of Excellence, which focuses specifically on the evaluation of mine clearance skills.
Builder Intermarine S. P. A, Italy
Displacement 680-730 tonnes
Length 52.5 meters
Beam 9.9 meters
Draft 3.1 Meters
Speed 13 knots
Engine power 2 * 1000 kilowatts
Mine control systems
Mine Warfare information system,
ECHO measurement (4 fixed, 1 trailed),
AUV (2 independently moving),
ROV (2 Cable-controlled),
clearing agents
Armament 1 * 40 mm, optronic Fire management system
Crew 38 persons "

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... tanpaa.htm
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by xav »

Thales Completes HMS Dauntless S1850M Long Range Radar Overhaul
Image
The Royal Navy HMS Dauntless Type 45 destroyer's S1850M Long Range Radar has been officially completely revised since last week. The overhaul was part of the ship's "Upkeep 2020" program and included a digital "factory acceptance test" (FAT), Thales said in a March 17 release.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -overhaul/


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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by seaspear »

xav wrote:Thales Completes HMS Dauntless S1850M Long Range Radar Overhaul
The Royal Navy HMS Dauntless Type 45 destroyer's S1850M Long Range Radar has been officially completely revised since last week. The overhaul was part of the ship's "Upkeep 2020" program and included a digital "factory acceptance test" (FAT), Thales said in a March 17 release.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -overhaul/
So What are the capabilities of the latest long-range radar upgrade mean in its new form?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

seaspear wrote:
xav wrote:Thales Completes HMS Dauntless S1850M Long Range Radar Overhaul
The Royal Navy HMS Dauntless Type 45 destroyer's S1850M Long Range Radar has been officially completely revised since last week. The overhaul was part of the ship's "Upkeep 2020" program and included a digital "factory acceptance test" (FAT), Thales said in a March 17 release.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -overhaul/
So What are the capabilities of the latest long-range radar upgrade mean in its new form?
Interesting as originally S1850M was Thales antenna with Bae/Marconi back end. Is the radar now more like SMART-L?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by cyrilranch »

tomuk wrote:
seaspear wrote:
xav wrote:Thales Completes HMS Dauntless S1850M Long Range Radar Overhaul
The Royal Navy HMS Dauntless Type 45 destroyer's S1850M Long Range Radar has been officially completely revised since last week. The overhaul was part of the ship's "Upkeep 2020" program and included a digital "factory acceptance test" (FAT), Thales said in a March 17 release.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -overhaul/
So What are the capabilities of the latest long-range radar upgrade mean in its new form?
Interesting as originally S1850M was Thales antenna with Bae/Marconi back end. Is the radar now more like SMART-L?
Would it been easier to get The Thales Smart L from the beginning skipping out the bae systems backend then updating to the latest Smart L version which the dutch have got now,
I would bet it would have been cheaper overall as we all know how much Bae overcharges for kit.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

My understanding is that SMART-MM/N, multi-mission/navy antenna is totally new, fully digital AESA using new gen GaN silicon transmit receiver modules, also with its dual axis tech, what Lockheed calls dual polarisation, dual‐pol radar sends and receives both horizontal and vertical pulses providing a much more informative two‐dimensional picture of what is out there, Lockheed uses it in the new SPY-7 for CSC and F-110 frigates, Thales also use dual axis in their other new radars eg NS100 - T31.

GaN silicon can take ~5+ times more power than previous gen silicon that enables it to pump out more RF energy, will need larger generators, assuming GaN ~40% efficient in creating RF energy that leaves 60% as heat to be cooled needing larger chillers to control temp of the antenna.

Would think very unlikely S1850M antenna could be upgraded, presuming it was the back end computers software upgraded.


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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

NickC wrote:My understanding is that SMART-MM/N, multi-mission/navy antenna is totally new, fully digital AESA using new gen GaN silicon transmit receiver modules, also with its dual axis tech, what Lockheed calls dual polarisation, dual‐pol radar sends and receives both horizontal and vertical pulses providing a much more informative two‐dimensional picture of what is out there, Lockheed uses it in the new SPY-7 for CSC and F-110 frigates, Thales also use dual axis in their other new radars eg NS100 - T31.

GaN silicon can take ~5+ times more power than previous gen silicon that enables it to pump out more RF energy, will need larger generators, assuming GaN ~40% efficient in creating RF energy that leaves 60% as heat to be cooled needing larger chillers to control temp of the antenna.

Would think very unlikely S1850M antenna could be upgraded, presuming it was the back end computers software upgraded.

Wikipedia mentions Thales software upgrade to the SMART-L, Extended Long Range (ELR) Mode and the SMART-L Early Warning Capability, (EWC), maybe either basis of the Thales S1850M overhaul?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

NickC wrote:My understanding is that SMART-MM/N, multi-mission/navy antenna is totally new, fully digital AESA using new gen GaN silicon transmit receiver modules, also with its dual axis tech, what Lockheed calls dual polarisation, dual‐pol radar sends and receives both horizontal and vertical pulses providing a much more informative two‐dimensional picture of what is out there, Lockheed uses it in the new SPY-7 for CSC and F-110 frigates, Thales also use dual axis in their other new radars eg NS100 - T31
Nick you are confusing two different technologies there.

Dual polarisation - where the radar sends out both horizontal and vertically polarised beams, this allows detail of the detected object to be obtained such as hail or rain by weather radar. The Lockheed LRDR supposedly uses this to help with ICBM tracking this may also apply to the derived SPY7.

Dual Axis - scanning means that the phased array radar moves the beams both horizontally and vertically ie in elevation
as well as in azimuth. This means the panel can see more sky without moving it or needing to be larger. It does allow you to see more detail on the object.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

tomuk wrote:
NickC wrote:My understanding is that SMART-MM/N, multi-mission/navy antenna is totally new, fully digital AESA using new gen GaN silicon transmit receiver modules, also with its dual axis tech, what Lockheed calls dual polarisation, dual‐pol radar sends and receives both horizontal and vertical pulses providing a much more informative two‐dimensional picture of what is out there, Lockheed uses it in the new SPY-7 for CSC and F-110 frigates, Thales also use dual axis in their other new radars eg NS100 - T31
Nick you are confusing two different technologies there.

Dual polarisation - where the radar sends out both horizontal and vertically polarised beams, this allows detail of the detected object to be obtained such as hail or rain by weather radar. The Lockheed LRDR supposedly uses this to help with ICBM tracking this may also apply to the derived SPY7.

Dual Axis - scanning means that the phased array radar moves the beams both horizontally and vertically ie in elevation
as well as in azimuth. This means the panel can see more sky without moving it or needing to be larger. It does allow you to see more detail on the object.
Thanks for correction, do you know of any online paper by Thales or its engineers on its dual axis tech.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Here is a video. there are also the datasheets on Thales website.


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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by xav »

I confirm, during my visit (video above) Thales told me you can't upgrade from a SMART L to a SMART L MM (well technically you could but it would make absolutely no sense as it would cost just as much, if not more, than buying a new SMART L MM radar)

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