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Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
149
53%
Kongsberg NSM
64
23%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
43
15%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
19
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 283

SouthernOne
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SouthernOne » 24 Nov 2019, 04:45

donald_of_tokyo wrote::( RN T26, RAN Hunter class, and RCS version comparison:

In short, only 5 parts will change
- foremast and radars on it
- CMS
- Mk.41 VLS arrangement
- SSM on top of the mission bay
- and SH-60R handing



Some of those changes have the potential to be quite significant though. The energy and cooling requirements of the CEA radar suite (X, L and S band arrays) are likely to be multiples of that for the RN's Artisan, so have the potential to require changes to those systems. SH-60 handling will also include installation of ASIST as used in the Hobart Class. CMS changes will also extend to communications and data links, along with Nulka.

So far, there doesn't appear to be an official statement on the number of Mk.41 cells to be installed, although 32 seems the minimum.

calculus
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby calculus » 28 Nov 2019, 18:12

donald_of_tokyo wrote::( RN T26, RAN Hunter class, and RCS version comparison:

In short, only 5 parts will change
- foremast and radars on it
- CMS
- Mk.41 VLS arrangement
- SSM on top of the mission bay
- and SH-60R handing

Common, includes:
- most of the platform systems (Drive trains, Power generation system etc)
- 5inch gun (highly probable with its automated arsenal)
- CAPTAS-4 sonar

Well known issues, but good confirmation by RAN Hunter class responsible person's direct comment. I think high commonality is a very good news on UK industry (of course, not all the platform systems on T26 is from UK though), and maintenance/logistics.

Mission bay size:

- If the ISO 20ft container size in the model is "up to scale", it looks like the mission bay door is as wide (long) as 13m. Also, the port-side RHIB alcove (there is nothing in the starboard side) looks "9.5m capable".
- Small opening right behind the alcove looks like the AS torpedo launcher? (other sites also suggest so). If true, space is left and adding it on RN T26 will be very easy with tiny money. May be RAN/RCN will prove it efficient or not, and RN can easily add it or leave it in future, respectively.

We now know the designation of the volume search radar for the RCN CSC T26 variant: AN/SPY-7 (V1): https://www.naval-technology.com/news/u ... n-spy-7v1/

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 29 Nov 2019, 11:45

calculus wrote:We now know the designation of the volume search radar for the RCN CSC T26 variant: AN/SPY-7 (V1): https://www.naval-technology.com/news/u ... n-spy-7v1/


Not so sure

The Japanese Aegis Ashore SPY-7 radar land based with its two large fixed face antennas for ballistic missile defence against threat from North Korea and China, based on the new Missile Defense Agency AESA S-band GaN LRDR sited in Alaska with its two massive ~3,000 square feet antennas. It appears Lockheed having problems downsizing as they replaced it with variant of Israeli Elta ELM-2084 used with Iron Dome/David's Sling in their losing bid for a new gen Patriot radar won by Raytheon only last month.

Lockheed have been assisting Indra in developing their new AESA S-band GaN frigate radar for the new Spanish F110s including integrating LM International Aegis Fire Control Loop to control SM-2s/ESSM, suspect this will be the radar fitted to the Canadian CSC/Type 26.

Ron5
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 29 Nov 2019, 13:11

Why would Lockheed, who is the prime on the Canadian frigate program, select a Spanish radar in preference to its own product?

calculus
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby calculus » 29 Nov 2019, 14:42

NickC wrote:
calculus wrote:We now know the designation of the volume search radar for the RCN CSC T26 variant: AN/SPY-7 (V1): https://www.naval-technology.com/news/u ... n-spy-7v1/


Not so sure

The Japanese Aegis Ashore SPY-7 radar land based with its two large fixed face antennas for ballistic missile defence against threat from North Korea and China, based on the new Missile Defense Agency AESA S-band GaN LRDR sited in Alaska with its two massive ~3,000 square feet antennas. It appears Lockheed having problems downsizing as they replaced it with variant of Israeli Elta ELM-2084 used with Iron Dome/David's Sling in their losing bid for a new gen Patriot radar won by Raytheon only last month.

Lockheed have been assisting Indra in developing their new AESA S-band GaN frigate radar for the new Spanish F110s including integrating LM International Aegis Fire Control Loop to control SM-2s/ESSM, suspect this will be the radar fitted to the Canadian CSC/Type 26.


It appears to be the same: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/us-gove ... n-spy-7v1/

The radar is scaleable (like AMDR SPY-6), so the panel size and configuration can change, but the underlying technology is the same.

NickC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 29 Nov 2019, 15:59

Ron5 wrote:Why would Lockheed, who is the prime on the Canadian frigate program, select a Spanish radar in preference to its own product?


Some thoughts on pros for Lockheed going with Indra radar for the CSC, you may come with some cons.

Lockheed have a contractual agreement with Indra for marketing radar world wide, and may have manufacturing rights?

Expect the Indra AESA 'state of the art radar' using Lockheed's GaN dual polarity S-band T/R modules as used in SPY-7.

Saving Lockheed the cost of an additional ~ hundred million $ in development costs for a new frigate radar for the CSC when the new Indra radar on shelf, bearing in mind they had to pull their own radar design from the Patriot competition. The new Raytheon radar development contract for Patriot using its existing SPY-6 T/R Ms US Army fixed price at $384 million to build, test, and deliver six production radars.
calculus wrote:
It appears to be the same: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/us-gove ... n-spy-7v1/

The radar is scaleable (like AMDR SPY-6), so the panel size and configuration can change, but the underlying technology is the same.


Make the same point why should Lockheed spend the extra development money for new radar unless Canadians funding it, the Raytheon SPY-6(V)2/EASR development is funded by separate $92 million USN contract additional to the SPY-6(V)1 for Burke.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 29 Nov 2019, 18:14

The way Lockheed originally locked down the Halifaxes contract (ten years ago) was the modularity and open architecture that characterizes (Saab's!) 9LV for ensuring that a speedy consensus can be reached between partners on a build programme
... are they eyeing another 2nd tier, but important navy, to do the same, by giving an avenue for Armada's 'their own' radar to become a commercially viable product?

Pure speculation on my part

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 17 Dec 2019, 11:34


(Matsimus) 14th December 2019
The Type 26 frigate or City-class frigate is a class of frigate being built for the United Kingdom's Royal Navy. The ship design and manufacture programme, known as the Global Combat Ship, was created by the UK Ministry of Defence to partially replace the navy's thirteen Type 23 frigates, and for export. Its primary role is to conduct advanced anti-submarine warfare missions while supporting air defence and general purpose operations.

The programme began in 1998, under what was then known as the Future Surface Combatant (FSC). However, by March 2010, this procurement programme had evolved to become the Global Combat Ship, following the announcement of a four-year, £127 million design contract being awarded to BAE Systems Maritime – Naval Ships. The design passed Main Gate 1 in early 2015, with the Demonstration Phase starting 1 April 2015. In August 2015 the first long lead items for Type 26 were ordered, with manufacturing then expected to begin in 2016 and the first Type 26 to be delivered in 2023.. In November 2016 it was announced that first steel would be cut for the eight Royal Navy ships in summer 2017. They will be built at BAE Systems' Govan and Scotstoun yards on the River Clyde in Glasgow. The contract award to manufacture the Type 26 was announced by BAE Systems on 2 July 2017, with steel cut for the first of class, HMS Glasgow on 20 July 2017 by the then Secretary of State for Defence, Sir Michael Fallon.

In June 2018, the Australian Government announced that it had selected a modified version of the Type 26 platform as the planned replacement for its Anzac-class frigate. This will see the Royal Australian Navy procure up to nine Hunter-class frigates, which will be constructed by BAE Systems Australia at ASC's shipyard in Osborne, South Australia.

Simon82
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Simon82 » 18 Jan 2020, 00:29

Image

Is that 2 x 3 cell stand-alone Lockheed Martin ExLS VLS systems I spy just aft of the gas turbine intake/exhaust on this new model of the Canadian version of the Type 26?
I’d heard the Royal Canadian Navy were looking at SeaCeptor (CAMM) and I wondered where they were going to use it, but it appears their future frigates will carry 24 (assuming 4 missiles per VLS cell) in lieu of the CIWS (SeaRAM) shown on earlier renders.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 18 Jan 2020, 17:58

Here's the other view ..

Image

Simon82
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Simon82 » 18 Jan 2020, 18:30

Ron5 wrote:Here's the other view ..


So only half the SeaCepter load out of the Royal Navy City Class, but with the addition of an extra 8-cell Mk41 VLS module, for a total of 32 Mk41 cells. I wonder what they’re going to put in all of them? Do any of you more knowledgable people know if the Canadians still have stocks of SM-2 from the Iroquois Class and for that matter do they have any intention to purchase tomahawk and/or ASROC?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jake1992 » 18 Jan 2020, 21:25

Simon82 wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Here's the other view ..


So only half the SeaCepter load out of the Royal Navy City Class, but with the addition of an extra 8-cell Mk41 VLS module, for a total of 32 Mk41 cells. I wonder what they’re going to put in all of them? Do any of you more knowledgable people know if the Canadians still have stocks of SM-2 from the Iroquois Class and for that matter do they have any intention to purchase tomahawk and/or ASROC?


They’ve also got 8 canister launchers, so the equivalent of 40 Mk41s and 24 CAMM to our 24 Mk41s and 48 CAMM

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 18 Jan 2020, 21:56

Yeah that's all fine but what are those half ping pong balls on the side of the mast structure??

... and I wouldn't shoot off both sides of those missile canisters at the same time! Unless they are torpedo launchers :D

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby seaspear » 19 Jan 2020, 03:28

Would there be any possibility of cold launches from those VLS to the rear ,allowing the missile canisters to be facing outwards
https://www.dsiac.org/resources/journal ... -launching

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 19 Jan 2020, 10:21

Simon82 wrote:Image

Is that 2 x 3 cell stand-alone Lockheed Martin ExLS VLS systems I spy just aft of the gas turbine intake/exhaust on this new model of the Canadian version of the Type 26?
I’d heard the Royal Canadian Navy were looking at SeaCeptor (CAMM) and I wondered where they were going to use it, but it appears their future frigates will carry 24 (assuming 4 missiles per VLS cell) in lieu of the CIWS (SeaRAM) shown on earlier renders.


was this model on show at SNA 2020 if so the US Naval top brass must be looking at it and thinking why are we not looking at this more many be the best ASW hull in the world with all the room we need to fit what we like

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 19 Jan 2020, 13:54

A simple question.

Has Canada decided the SAM selection? As, 24 CAMM looks a bit too small in number, I'm not clear what the 6-cell ExLS is for.

Purely speculation ....
- could it be "24 CAMM (in 6-cell ExLS) + 24 SM-6 + 8 ASROC (in 32-cell Mk.41)", for example? The combination is similar to Aster-30 + Aster-15, onboard French FREDA and/or FDI frigates.
- or the ExLS could be just for Nulka decoy (up to 24), and the 32-cell Mk.41 carries some number of ESSM bclkii (active homing)?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 19 Jan 2020, 14:09

The 24 CAMM in 6-cell ExLS are for CIWS, selected by Canada as an improvement on and instead of SeaRAM.

The expectation is that the Mk41 cells will be filled with ESSM block2 and Standard Missiles - but exact details have not been announced.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 19 Jan 2020, 15:04

Why is everyone assuming they are CAMM?

Canada already uses ESSM. It's far more likely they'll just pack that in instead.

Altogether an impressive ship. Wish the City class could take some lessons from it...

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jake1992 » 19 Jan 2020, 15:06

RetroSicotte wrote:Why is everyone assuming they are CAMM?

Canada already uses ESSM. It's far more likely they'll just pack that in instead.

Altogether an impressive ship. Wish the City class could take some lessons from it...


Iv said it before not only are we ordering the smallest number of our own design but also arming them to the weakest spec, this won’t look good on the UK and RN on the world stage really.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 19 Jan 2020, 15:56

Jake1992 wrote:Iv said it before not only are we ordering the smallest number of our own design but also arming them to the weakest spec, this won’t look good on the UK and RN on the world stage really.

Has the "spec" actually been published? Apart from some details on the main gun and possibly the main radar, I thought everything was pretty speculative at the moment, based mainly on a bunch of models and sales brochures.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 19 Jan 2020, 16:04

There was interest in the CEAFAR radar from the UK, but seems to have gone quiet.

https://www.naval-technology.com/news/u ... avy-ships/
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 19 Jan 2020, 16:48

RetroSicotte wrote:Why is everyone assuming they are CAMM?
Because that's what Jane's reported back in May.

Aethulwulf wrote:
From beyond the paywall...

"With the selection of the ExLS launcher in Canada, Jane's understands that the MBDA Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) is now also specified as the designated close-in defence missile system.

The selection of CAMM would mark a major success for MBDA. The missile is part of a multi-layer defense system, and Canada is also a member of the Evolved SeaSparrow Missile group and investing in development of Block II."

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby calculus » 19 Jan 2020, 19:57

Simon82 wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Here's the other view ..


So only half the SeaCepter load out of the Royal Navy City Class, but with the addition of an extra 8-cell Mk41 VLS module, for a total of 32 Mk41 cells. I wonder what they’re going to put in all of them? Do any of you more knowledgable people know if the Canadians still have stocks of SM-2 from the Iroquois Class and for that matter do they have any intention to purchase tomahawk and/or ASROC?


This is a topic of some debate on the Canadian defence forums, but the majority concensus is that the missile load-out will be mission specific. By mission specific I mean GP or AAW. These ships are being built around a powerful radar system (https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/sn ... y-7-radar/) which can provide long-range volume search, which will allow the CSC to take on an AAW role. The combination of the SPY-7, 32 x Mk41 VLS, and the 6 ExLS launchers would suggest that a CSC tasked with AAW would sail with all 32 Mk41s loaded with SM-x (either SM-2MR or SM-6, in all likelihood), with 24 CAMM for self defence. A CSC configured for the GP role would likely sail with CAMM, ESSM blk 2, and some
lesser number of SM-x. Or possibly all ESSM. That's the beauty of this configuration. Canada will have 15 ships that are infinitely flexible and adaptable as GP or AAW, in addition to the powerful ASW capabilities baked in to the base design.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Enigmatically » 19 Jan 2020, 21:05

Jake1992 wrote:Iv said it before not only are we ordering the smallest number of our own design but also arming them to the weakest spec, this won’t look good on the UK and RN on the world stage really.

Presumably by the same logic you also think Lily Allen is one of the sexiest women alive because she has 3 nipples.

I've said it before, this type of assessment is based on a fantasy top trumps view that has nothing to do with the real world.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 19 Jan 2020, 21:07

Except ExLs doesn't fit ESSM so that will always be filled with CAMM.

(in answer to calculus)


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