Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
164
52%
Kongsberg NSM
78
25%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
44
14%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
21
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 315

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

jonas wrote:Do you have any idea in regards to the author of this article, he certainly seems to be quite anti the BAE offering. Indeed some of his comments on the T26 are either completely straight forward bias, or he doesn't really have much idea of what he is talking about.:-

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... ginAction=[object%20Object]
I see no big problem to this article. No its not correct in detail, but the point is, T26 is not yet existing, while the other two is. Fairly reasonable point. It also states T26 is the most quiet one, although he do not understand its importance on ASW = why RN is paying so much on silence.

But, RN paying for silence does not mean RAN will. T26 is the most risky and probably the most expensive proposal for sure. If the figure-of-merit vs cost-increase is tie, T26 will not be selected, simply because it is not yet existing = higher risk. Only if T26 was much better than the other two, it will be selected.

In other words, how much RAN want's to follow RN's ASW tactics. If RAN is happy with USN's "surface fleet+P-8A"'s ASW capability, Navantia will win.

jonas
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

I was talking about more than its capability as an ASW vessel, but the whole tone of the article itself. Never mind though we obviously interpret his writing in a different way.

matt00773
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by matt00773 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I see no big problem to this article. No its not correct in detail, but the point is, T26 is not yet existing, while the other two is. Fairly reasonable point. It also states T26 is the most quiet one, although he do not understand its importance on ASW = why RN is paying so much on silence.

But, RN paying for silence does not mean RAN will. T26 is the most risky and probably the most expensive proposal for sure. If the figure-of-merit vs cost-increase is tie, T26 will not be selected, simply because it is not yet existing = higher risk. Only if T26 was much better than the other two, it will be selected.

In other words, how much RAN want's to follow RN's ASW tactics. If RAN is happy with USN's "surface fleet+P-8A"'s ASW capability, Navantia will win.
The Australian government have stated the importance of overcoming the threat of submarines within the Asia-Pacific region over the coming decades - they expect around half the worlds submarines on their door step. This is, afterall, the very reason they are running an ASW frigate competition. The USNs ASW strategy that you state won't work for Australia given the number of ASW assets that the US has and also the size of the Australian coast line and territorial waters.

The Australian defence minister Christopher Pyne has recently stated that capability will be the primary determining factor in the competition.

matt00773
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by matt00773 »

New article in The Australian - "British, Italian ship bids given nod for subs warfare".

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation ... e10f994060

The British and Italian bids to build the nation’s new Future Frigates have been rated by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute as the most capable anti-submarine warfare ships on offer in the $35 billion SEA 5000 tender.

However, the third contender, Spain’s Navantia, has been identified as the least risky option, and likely the cheapest to build.

With a decision on the Future Frigate contract due within weeks, the institute has rated the three contenders for the contract on performance, project risk, ­industrial strategy and cost.

The institute’s latest paper said the Type 26 Global Combat Ship offered by Britain’s BAE Systems was “the most modern design”, but also the least proven ­option, with no ships yet completed.

The Type 26’s newness was a “two-edged sword”, the report said, with its performance based on projections “which should necessarily be regarded with some scepticism”. The FREMM, from Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri, was a “relatively new but proven ­design”, and well suited to an ASW-specific role.

“Relative to the Type 26, the FREMM offers the advantage of already being in service, and thus being more readily evaluated. For example, its acoustic signature can be measured, rather than being a projected figure,” the paper said.

It said Fincantieri, as a major builder of military and commercial ships, offered “probably the greatest opportunities for Australian industry” through access to its global supply chain.

Navantia had the benefit of its experience building the navy’s three Hobart-class air warfare ­destroyers, which its F-5000 ­future frigate is based on, and its capable Adelaide-based shipbuilding workforce.

“The Navantia vessel is almost certainly the least risky of the three contenders from a project risk perspective, in the sense of Navantia being able to start work relatively quickly,” the paper said.

The nine ship SEA 5000 contract was one of the biggest open to Western naval shipbuilders, and would be a defining one for Australia’s security and its shipbuilding industry, the paper said.

It rated the Type 26 as the “most risky” option, and “possibly the most expensive”.

The Spanish ship was likely to be the least ­expensive to build, unless significant design changes were mandated to deliver high-perform­ance ASW capabilities. Fincantieri’s lack of familiarity with the Australian shipbuilding environment was a project risk for the Italians, the institute said.

It said the FREMM’s hangar capacity, which allows for two Seahawk ASW helicopters, was one of the major attractions of the Italian bid.

The Type 26’s large mission bay, which could house and ­deploy drones, surface craft, unmanned submarines, or a second Seahawk helicopter, was unique among the contenders, ASPI said, providing “flexibility for mission loads to change through life”. Unlike its rivals, the F-5000 cannot switch to run on electric motors, making it louder when hunting a submarine. The report said the F-5000 benefited from having more missile cells incorporated into its baseline design than the FREMM or the Type 26, giving it strong air- defence capabilities.

“The Hobart-class pedigree means it is a multipurpose combatant with ASW capabilities, rather than a design optimised from the start for ASW as its primary mission,” the paper said.

It noted the SEA 5000 tender called for a ship “optimised” for anti-submarine warfare. But it said the preferred vessel was likely to be chosen for its ability to perform a broad range of roles, given the frigates make up 75 per cent of the Navy’s surface fleet.

“As a result, we think the ­future frigates will be more accurately characterised as general purpose frigates with advanced ASW capabilities,” the paper said.

Whichever bidder won the contract, the success of the project and its benefits for the shipbuilding industry would hinge on how well the Australian government used its $35b leverage.

“Done well, with effective intellectual property rights agreed upfront, Australian firms can become export partners for the winning contractors’ own production and international sales,” the report said. Cabinet’s national security committee is expected to meet within the next four weeks to ­determine which of the contenders will win the contract.

Jake1992
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

matt00773 wrote:New article in The Australian - "British, Italian ship bids given nod for subs warfare".

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation ... e10f994060

The British and Italian bids to build the nation’s new Future Frigates have been rated by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute as the most capable anti-submarine warfare ships on offer in the $35 billion SEA 5000 tender.

However, the third contender, Spain’s Navantia, has been identified as the least risky option, and likely the cheapest to build.

With a decision on the Future Frigate contract due within weeks, the institute has rated the three contenders for the contract on performance, project risk, ­industrial strategy and cost.

The institute’s latest paper said the Type 26 Global Combat Ship offered by Britain’s BAE Systems was “the most modern design”, but also the least proven ­option, with no ships yet completed.

The Type 26’s newness was a “two-edged sword”, the report said, with its performance based on projections “which should necessarily be regarded with some scepticism”. The FREMM, from Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri, was a “relatively new but proven ­design”, and well suited to an ASW-specific role.

“Relative to the Type 26, the FREMM offers the advantage of already being in service, and thus being more readily evaluated. For example, its acoustic signature can be measured, rather than being a projected figure,” the paper said.

It said Fincantieri, as a major builder of military and commercial ships, offered “probably the greatest opportunities for Australian industry” through access to its global supply chain.

Navantia had the benefit of its experience building the navy’s three Hobart-class air warfare ­destroyers, which its F-5000 ­future frigate is based on, and its capable Adelaide-based shipbuilding workforce.

“The Navantia vessel is almost certainly the least risky of the three contenders from a project risk perspective, in the sense of Navantia being able to start work relatively quickly,” the paper said.

The nine ship SEA 5000 contract was one of the biggest open to Western naval shipbuilders, and would be a defining one for Australia’s security and its shipbuilding industry, the paper said.

It rated the Type 26 as the “most risky” option, and “possibly the most expensive”.

The Spanish ship was likely to be the least ­expensive to build, unless significant design changes were mandated to deliver high-perform­ance ASW capabilities. Fincantieri’s lack of familiarity with the Australian shipbuilding environment was a project risk for the Italians, the institute said.

It said the FREMM’s hangar capacity, which allows for two Seahawk ASW helicopters, was one of the major attractions of the Italian bid.

The Type 26’s large mission bay, which could house and ­deploy drones, surface craft, unmanned submarines, or a second Seahawk helicopter, was unique among the contenders, ASPI said, providing “flexibility for mission loads to change through life”. Unlike its rivals, the F-5000 cannot switch to run on electric motors, making it louder when hunting a submarine. The report said the F-5000 benefited from having more missile cells incorporated into its baseline design than the FREMM or the Type 26, giving it strong air- defence capabilities.

“The Hobart-class pedigree means it is a multipurpose combatant with ASW capabilities, rather than a design optimised from the start for ASW as its primary mission,” the paper said.

It noted the SEA 5000 tender called for a ship “optimised” for anti-submarine warfare. But it said the preferred vessel was likely to be chosen for its ability to perform a broad range of roles, given the frigates make up 75 per cent of the Navy’s surface fleet.

“As a result, we think the ­future frigates will be more accurately characterised as general purpose frigates with advanced ASW capabilities,” the paper said.

Whichever bidder won the contract, the success of the project and its benefits for the shipbuilding industry would hinge on how well the Australian government used its $35b leverage.

“Done well, with effective intellectual property rights agreed upfront, Australian firms can become export partners for the winning contractors’ own production and international sales,” the report said. Cabinet’s national security committee is expected to meet within the next four weeks to ­determine which of the contenders will win the contract.
Did I read it right that the Aus government are wanting a cut of any global export from the winning bid ?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

matt00773 wrote: With a decision on the Future Frigate contract due within weeks, the institute has rated the three contenders
matt00773 wrote: The nine ship SEA 5000 contract was one of the biggest open to Western naval shipbuilders
Imminent & what actually is open:
... key words
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

matt00773
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by matt00773 »

Jake1992 wrote:Did I read it right that the Aus government are wanting a cut of any global export from the winning bid ?
That's a statement from the report, not from the Australian government - that exports could be a possibility. Though it should be pointed out that all bids include complete IP rights to Australia for the winning design. BAE are already sourcing components for Type 26 from Australian companies, so this is already achieving global exports for Australia.

Jake1992
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

matt00773 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:Did I read it right that the Aus government are wanting a cut of any global export from the winning bid ?
That's a statement from the report, not from the Australian government - that exports could be a possibility. Though it should be pointed out that all bids include complete IP rights to Australia for the winning design. BAE are already sourcing components for Type 26 from Australian companies, so this is already achieving global exports for Australia.
My understand of it was that if this become Aus government policy the does this mean they will expect a share of "our" global exports of the T26 ( e.g Canadian sales ) or have I misunderstood what it's getting at ?

Mercator
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Mercator »

If they pay for the IP and then you use that IP as a basis for another bid, well then, you're damn right they get a cut.

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Jake1992 wrote:My understand of it was that if this become Aus government policy the does this mean they will expect a share of "our" global exports of the T26 ( e.g Canadian sales ) or have I misunderstood what it's getting at ?
The key word is “partner”. Like the UK is a partner in the F-35.

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shark bait
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

jonas wrote:I would say that if it was a decsion made by the RAN, then the T26 may well have its nose in front. However left to the politicians, then due to commonality, costs, and having experience of working with Navantia recently then I think they will have the edge.
Have to agree with that.

One is the technically superior options, the other is low risk and ready to go. How much of an appetite for risk do the Australian's have? They're certainly bold with their submarine choice, will the same be true for frigates?

I can't split it between the British and Spanish bids.
@LandSharkUK

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Personally I think the Type 26 has a great chance. Politics will undoubtably play a major role in the decision but that may actually strengthen the UK's bid. How much does the Australian government value the UK's defence cooperation in the Pacific region?

BAE has a strong presence in Australia and that must be a major advantage.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Australia

High level defence programmes such as this could have an impact in the overall political decision.

https://www.ft.com/content/bb6bae54-5c3 ... 1af256df68

From the text in case you can't get past the pay wall, "Britain is expecting Australia to become partner in the satellite navigation system to rival Europe’s €10 billion Galileo project and will announce first tenders by the end of the year."

It will be very interesting to see what happens.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Wouldn't it be interesting if they got a T-26 in the water before we did!

CameronPerson
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by CameronPerson »

Lord Jim wrote:Wouldn't it be interesting if they got a T-26 in the water before we did!
Luckily I think we’ll beat them on that, after all Glasgow will be ahead in construction by three years before the Aussies want to start building their frigate.. it’s just getting ours operational which will be interesting to watch in that timeframe :thumbdown:

jonas
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Another interesting article, written by someone with experience :-

http://www.afr.com/news/policy/defence/ ... 520-h10ajs

jonas
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

At the end of the day is at all going to be down to price :-

http://www.afr.com/news/frigate-expert- ... 519-h10ahb

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

I do wish people wouldn't post links to subscription sites. Transpose the text if you want people to be able to read it and hope the publications copyright lawyers don't catch you.

matt00773
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by matt00773 »

Here's a link to the full publication of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute document which was referenced by several recent articles on the SEA 5000 programme - "The next big grey thing – choosing Australia’s future frigate":

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com ... Qjx1FHPGZF

From my perspective its rather disappointing, with many basic factual errors and omissions (Aus Type 26 has 32 VLS, not 24), as well as lazy assumptions. It is stated within the document that they never had access to any tender documentation or responses, so its difficult to rate its credibility.

seaspear
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by seaspear »

The R.A.N requirement is for the vessel to able to deploy two helicopters for asw this could be achieved with a little difficulty I understand using the mission bay of the t26 would the R.N do this with two Merlins ?

Spinflight
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Spinflight »

Poiuytrewq wrote:Personally I think the Type 26 has a great chance. Politics will undoubtably play a major role in the decision but that may actually strengthen the UK's bid. How much does the Australian government value the UK's defence cooperation in the Pacific region?
As we don't have enough ships to send them there often it's of fairly marginal significance.

My tea leaves are telling me Fincantieri mainly due to the wider industrial benefits. The only caveat to this is a nod to the T26 probably means they know they'll get some work from Canada too. Which would also make it a strong favourite for the US requirement.

Which I find a bit troubling to be honest. The T26 was designed to win such competitions hence my lack of confidence, as opposed to optimism, isn't a great reflection.

If we win it then can we all agree to collectively blame it on brexit? :D

seaspear
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by seaspear »

I would just like to know the expected unit costs of these various ships in comparison ,they are now expected to be far more capable that their parents

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shark bait
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Are we still expecting an announcement from Australia today? I guess their working day is done now....
@LandSharkUK

clinch
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by clinch »

Spinflight wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:Personally I think the Type 26 has a great chance. Politics will undoubtably play a major role in the decision but that may actually strengthen the UK's bid. How much does the Australian government value the UK's defence cooperation in the Pacific region?
As we don't have enough ships to send them there often it's of fairly marginal significance.

My tea leaves are telling me Fincantieri mainly due to the wider industrial benefits. The only caveat to this is a nod to the T26 probably means they know they'll get some work from Canada too. Which would also make it a strong favourite for the US requirement.

Which I find a bit troubling to be honest. The T26 was designed to win such competitions hence my lack of confidence, as opposed to optimism, isn't a great reflection.

If we win it then can we all agree to collectively blame it on brexit? :D
Wouldn't the Australians have more Type 26 than us if BAe win the tender?

Timmymagic
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

clinch wrote:Wouldn't the Australians have more Type 26 than us if BAe win the tender?
Indeed, and arguably a more capable one (although Merlin HM.2 and possible TLAM may make up for it). But if it wins the Canada contract the same will hold true. You never know if it won both Canada and Australia the efficiencies could lead to a bigger buy for the RN....nah, I'm just kidding...

Mercator
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Mercator »

shark bait wrote:Are we still expecting an announcement from Australia today? I guess their working day is done now....
The National Security Committee meets tonight. Probably underway within the hour. If it's a slamdunk, you may hear something in another four hours, particularly as tomorrow's newspapers start to be known. Otherwise, they could reconvene at any time to get more briefings and debate the finer details – days or even weeks.

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