Agree, for comparison it is expected that the 1st Sea 5000 vessel is to start construction in 2020 and not commission till late 2020's, hopefully we will get more up to date builds schedule when the consortium winner is announced soonRon5 wrote:The schedule has been set by the customer, not the shipbuilder.Gabriele wrote:Kill british shipbuilding with fire, this is simply absurd.@GutoAberconwy confirms the 1st Type 26, HMS Glasgow is due to be accepted from builders summer 2025. She will not be fully operational until 2027.
Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
There was an interview from BAE Managing Director Nigel Stewart recently where he stated that HMS Glasgow would be in the water by the end of 2020. If you factor another couple of years for fitting out and another couple of years for manufacturer testing, then the 2025 date for acceptance/commissioning makes sense. The 2027 date is for fully operational.
It seems also that statements from politicians on things like this are based on the worst case scenario - so 2027 would be the latest.
It seems also that statements from politicians on things like this are based on the worst case scenario - so 2027 would be the latest.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Even the contenders in the SEA5000 program are not stated to have their ships fully capable until late 2020,2 and that,s with a build program required to start 2020
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Better be careful! If Arson is committed in a Royal Dockyard, it may still be punishable by death!
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Actually, the 2020 SEA 5000 construction date is for "Prototyping Activities" which is for testing the production processes and workforce readiness. The "Ship Construction" doesn't start until 24 months after the prototyping - 2022 approx. The late 2020s in service date for the first ship seems about right in that case. If Australia choose T26 they would therefore be roughly 5 years behind the UK from a production perspective - something which has been stated all along.seaspear wrote:Even the contenders in the SEA5000 program are not stated to have their ships fully capable until late 2020,2 and that,s with a build program required to start 2020
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
I don't see it taking that long if they go with the Navantia variant though. Which is probably another reason why it might get up over other options.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
We would have to see Navantia's response to the "Prototyping" question on that one. As it turns out, Navantia have design changes of 30% in relation to the parent design - with T26, its less than 10%.Mercator wrote:I don't see it taking that long if they go with the Navantia variant though. Which is probably another reason why it might get up over other options.
Also, I don't think such a critical decision for Australia to make in relation to a specific capability that will operate over many decades is going to be swayed by just a few months of initial build time. If you look at the decision with SEA 1000, they went for capability over everything else.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Anyone happen to have the comparable figure (%) for their AAWs?matt00773 wrote: As it turns out, Navantia have design changes of 30% in relation to the parent design - with T26, its less than 10%.
- every per cent cost them dear
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
I don't have access to the percentages of changes in each design. If you do, feel free to share your source. That said, we know that the radar installation, the combat system, weapon system and the Helo arresting systems will be the major changes in both the T26 and the FREMM, less so in the existing F105 design. Navantia would have to be very ambitious with every other system to have a greater design impact. I have seen nothing to indicate that, but by all means, change my mind...matt00773 wrote:We would have to see Navantia's response to the "Prototyping" question on that one. As it turns out, Navantia have design changes of 30% in relation to the parent design - with T26, its less than 10%.Mercator wrote:I don't see it taking that long if they go with the Navantia variant though. Which is probably another reason why it might get up over other options.
Also, I don't think such a critical decision for Australia to make in relation to a specific capability that will operate over many decades is going to be swayed by just a few months of initial build time. If you look at the decision with SEA 1000, they went for capability over everything else.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
PS. I should address the second part of your reasoning as well.
With SEA1000, the politicians could set a very modest pace because there is no existing submarine building program, and hence no yard workers clamouring for the follow-on submarine.
With SEA 5000, workers from the previous AWD program are being laid off now. The OPV project is designed to give some breathing space, but only two OPVs will be built in Adelaide. That's two years work at best. Now yes, the prototyping work is expected to start in 2020, but politicians in charge are saying things like "steel will be cut in 2020", implying a program start in earnest. The story being sold is that the jobs for these workers are being saved and I doubt the unions will forget. With this in mind, I don't think the politicians will let the program languish too long in a design and testing phase. And I doubt we'll be waiting for the first frigate in 10 years. I also think that will have an impact on their selection, but that's just me. I think they'll be persuaded by a quick build with the F105 and if there are any changes they'd like to see, they'll do it with batching. My 2c.
With SEA1000, the politicians could set a very modest pace because there is no existing submarine building program, and hence no yard workers clamouring for the follow-on submarine.
With SEA 5000, workers from the previous AWD program are being laid off now. The OPV project is designed to give some breathing space, but only two OPVs will be built in Adelaide. That's two years work at best. Now yes, the prototyping work is expected to start in 2020, but politicians in charge are saying things like "steel will be cut in 2020", implying a program start in earnest. The story being sold is that the jobs for these workers are being saved and I doubt the unions will forget. With this in mind, I don't think the politicians will let the program languish too long in a design and testing phase. And I doubt we'll be waiting for the first frigate in 10 years. I also think that will have an impact on their selection, but that's just me. I think they'll be persuaded by a quick build with the F105 and if there are any changes they'd like to see, they'll do it with batching. My 2c.
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Seems like a universal formula... to remedy bad planningMercator wrote:With SEA 5000, workers from the previous AWD program are being laid off now. The OPV project is designed to give some breathing space
Sensible; and something that I see will happen with the T31s, tooMercator wrote:a quick build with the F105 and if there are any changes they'd like to see, they'll do it with batching
- not just with the exports,each such batch coming with a unique fit-out
- but also with the RN, once the "hulls crisis" has been attended to with appr. first 5
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
According to the schedule laid out by the Australian government, the first SEA 5000 is due to be in service by the late 2020s. Steel will indeed be cut in 2020, but this is part of the early construction phase which proves the build and design validation processes - as well as other re-risking activities. You're forgetting that Navantia have to make changes to the F-100 reference design to enhance for ASW capability. There seems to be a belief that they can just keep on producing Hobart class ships to satisfy some false urgency in building ships - this is very misguided. The SEA 4000 and SEA 5000 requirements are very different and ASW capability is very important for Australia over the next few decades.Mercator wrote:PS. I should address the second part of your reasoning as well.
With SEA1000, the politicians could set a very modest pace because there is no existing submarine building program, and hence no yard workers clamouring for the follow-on submarine.
With SEA 5000, workers from the previous AWD program are being laid off now. The OPV project is designed to give some breathing space, but only two OPVs will be built in Adelaide. That's two years work at best. Now yes, the prototyping work is expected to start in 2020, but politicians in charge are saying things like "steel will be cut in 2020", implying a program start in earnest. The story being sold is that the jobs for these workers are being saved and I doubt the unions will forget. With this in mind, I don't think the politicians will let the program languish too long in a design and testing phase. And I doubt we'll be waiting for the first frigate in 10 years. I also think that will have an impact on their selection, but that's just me. I think they'll be persuaded by a quick build with the F105 and if there are any changes they'd like to see, they'll do it with batching. My 2c.
The entire design, build, and operational readiness schedule has been laid out in the SEA 5000 RFT. The Australian government are obligated to adhere to the activities and schedule for SEA 5000, just as much as the bidders.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
A RFT doesn't write your bid for you, much less the contract that the two parties agree on. When Navantia make the pitch in their TV ads that they are "ready to go", one may reasonably assume that an aggressive schedule is one of their points of differentiation from other competitors. To fail to see the screaming urgency of the Australian government (in things like the completely unmodified OPV program), and the political situation in South Australian jobs, is to be blind to the realities of these decisions.
But hey, good luck to you. I'll be about here still in a few weeks time when the decision is made. If you're right, chase me down and I'll happily eat some humble pie for you.
But hey, good luck to you. I'll be about here still in a few weeks time when the decision is made. If you're right, chase me down and I'll happily eat some humble pie for you.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
For lots of reasons i think you will be right and australia does indeed go for the navantia design mercator but im still keeping my fingers Crossed they be adventurous and pic t26
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
But the stupidity in all this they could have been building AWD #4 as it was an option for some time and the reason why Howard Government choose it over baby burke, which with the revised schedule because of BAE stuff ups would could have mitigated the valley of death in shipbuilding.Mercator wrote:PS. I should address the second part of your reasoning as well.
With SEA1000, the politicians could set a very modest pace because there is no existing submarine building program, and hence no yard workers clamouring for the follow-on submarine.
With SEA 5000, workers from the previous AWD program are being laid off now. The OPV project is designed to give some breathing space, but only two OPVs will be built in Adelaide. That's two years work at best. Now yes, the prototyping work is expected to start in 2020, but politicians in charge are saying things like "steel will be cut in 2020", implying a program start in earnest. The story being sold is that the jobs for these workers are being saved and I doubt the unions will forget. With this in mind, I don't think the politicians will let the program languish too long in a design and testing phase. And I doubt we'll be waiting for the first frigate in 10 years. I also think that will have an impact on their selection, but that's just me. I think they'll be persuaded by a quick build with the F105 and if there are any changes they'd like to see, they'll do it with batching. My 2c.
I'm still of the belief we should have done a flight II AWD for 6 AWD hulls and nine ASW, Border force should take a bigger role with the new OPV moving some of the man power over to 1st tier combat fleet.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
If they choose the Navantia option, effectively they will be flight II AWDs. Indeed they should properly be called destroyers as well.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
I'll post this here in hope with my fingers and toes crossed that T26 gets up for Sea5000. Gives an indication on what might happen if the RN changes the baseline in the future. Couple of errors in it it overall a good little read.
http://adbr.com.au/a-bigger-shield-aegi ... australia/
http://adbr.com.au/a-bigger-shield-aegi ... australia/
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
That's what the RN wanted for the T45 but the UK politico's dragged them into the French system. Cost so much only 6 ships could be afforded and now there's no clear path to ABM. Sigh.R686 wrote:I'll post this here in hope with my fingers and toes crossed that T26 gets up for Sea5000. Gives an indication on what might happen if the RN changes the baseline in the future. Couple of errors in it it overall a good little read.
http://adbr.com.au/a-bigger-shield-aegi ... australia/
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
An article in The Australian on the BAE T26 bid for SEA 5000 - "Old ships can’t compete with our bid, says BAE".
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation ... 69ae8f3f8d
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation ... 69ae8f3f8d
BAE Systems is pressing its capability advantage in the race to win Australia’s $35 billion Future Frigate contract, comparing its purpose-built Type 26 submarine hunter with “old” and “derivative” options from rival bidders.
BAE Australia chief executive Gabby Costigan — a former Australian Army colonel and ex-Linfox Asia chief — said the company’s Type 26 Global Combat Ship would be “significantly more advanced than whoever it is we are trying to defeat”.
“From the customer’s perspective, they want the best capability. And I think that the Global Combat Ship, based on the Type 26, gives them that,” the Duntroon graduate said.
“The Italians have an old frigate, and the Spanish don’t have an Australian Anti-Submarine Warfare frigate. They are using a different hull and they are going to try to reverse-engineer that ASW capability.”
The biggest negative for BAE is the Type 26 exists only as a digital design file; none is in the water.
The company says its bid has been significantly “de-risked” by Britain, which is five years ahead in its program to build eight Type 26 vessels.
The Royal Navy will have three of the ships under way, and one in sea trials, by the time steel is cut for the first Australian ship.
GRAPHIC: The Future Frigates contract
BAE is competing against Italian company Fincantieri and Spanish ship builder Navantia to build nine anti-submarine frigates that will form the backbone of Australia’s ability to deal with threats in Asia-Pacific for the next 30 to 40 years.
Fincantieri’s FREMM is the only one of the proposed vessels in the water, and has been seen in recent months as the frontrunner to win the contract.
Navantia’s F-5000, which is based on the company’s Hobart-class Air Warfare Destroyer, was seen as the early leader, given it is already building AWDs in Adelaide, where the Future Frigates will also be built.
Ms Costigan and bid leader Nigel Stewart talked up their ship’s potential as a platform for futuristic directed-energy weapons that are expected to be deployed on ships in coming decades.
“They will come, but those weapons need a huge amount of power. The Type 26 has got the space in it, it’s got the power, for things like that,’’ Mr Stewart said.
Ms Costigan said BAE’s British roots also made the company the only bidder with membership to the exclusive “Five Eyes” intelligence club that includes the US, Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.
“That is something the others can’t offer. And when you do consider then threats of the future, that Five Eyes relationship for our region will be critical,” she said.
Ms Costigan said the FREMM would face “obsolescence issues” if Fincantieri won the bid — the first of that class was commissioned by the French in 2012, while the first Future Frigate won’t enter service until the late 2020s.
BAE also suggests the Navantia offering, as a “derivative of another ship”, won’t deliver the stealthiness required from a submarine hunter.
“Our ship is designed for anti-submarine warfare; it’s acoustically quiet,” Mr Stewart said. “The only way you’ll get a truly acoustically quiet ship is you design it in from the start.”
Ms Costigan said BAE, which had operated in Australia for 65 years and had 3500 local employees, had put a lot of work into getting its supply chain right for the project, and would “substantially” exceeded the required 50 per cent local participation.
The government is due to announce the winning bidder of its SEA 5000 Future Frigate contract by the middle of the year.
Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne has declared that the government’s top priority for the Future Frigate project is “that the navy gets the capability it needs to defend the nation and to maintain our national security and national interests in the region”.
It also wants to ensure that by the end of the project Australia has developed a sustainable domestic ship-building industry.
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Gabby Costigan seems to shoot from the hip. Any chance he could be transferred to the UK to give Parker an earful on his crappy Type 31 proposal?
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
I love the man, too
I think that the Global Combat Ship, based on the Type 26, gives them that
When you are in Australia, turning things upside down becomes easier?Britain [, which] is five years ahead in its program to build eight Type 26 vessels.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Gabby Costigan is a female, hence the Ms in the article.Ron5 wrote:Gabby Costigan seems to shoot from the hip. Any chance he could be transferred to the UK to give Parker an earful on his crappy Type 31 proposal?
Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Assuming this is for a 26... so i'm probably wrong
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]
Would they name a ship not yet contracted to be built? More likely it's Astute 7?SDL wrote:
Assuming this is for a 26... so i'm probably wrong