RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
- shark bait
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6427
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Judging by previous conversions MV Cragside / HMNZS Canterbury we're looking at 30-60 million to convert a ship, that's a fraction of the £250 million the MOD spend on travel expenses each year. They have until 2024 to plan it in, shouldn't be too difficult.
@LandSharkUK
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Is there a need for a new future aviation training ship too?
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Tides have been doing aviation training recently.
If you pay for your hospital ship from dfid funds then who gets first call on it mod or dfid? There a need for the ship on an operation and there’s a natural disaster somewhere else who task it?
If you pay for your hospital ship from dfid funds then who gets first call on it mod or dfid? There a need for the ship on an operation and there’s a natural disaster somewhere else who task it?
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
That's why you want more than one
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
I agree on Jakes assessment, operated by Serco when the shit hits the fan it becomes STUFT, the only difference is it does not become an armed warship and still remains under Article 22 of the Geneva Convention rules on hospital ships
http://historicalrfa.org/stuft-ships
https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/ ... ension.htm
http://historicalrfa.org/stuft-ships
https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/ ... ension.htm
-
OnlineTempest414
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5624
- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
I would have to say for me the best way to crew any new Hospital ship would be an extension to the Foreland ( Point class ) contract for the core crew which would mean they are required to be sponsored reserves as part of there service. the medical staff would come from the NHS and MOD
-
OnlineTempest414
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5624
- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
that would depend on the operation if it was a Falklands or Gulf war 1/2 affair or something else if it is a falklands job then it is a no brianer mod wins every timeSW1 wrote:If you pay for your hospital ship from dfid funds then who gets first call on it mod or dfid? There a need for the ship on an operation and there’s a natural disaster somewhere else who task it?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Could this be one reason why an Argus replacement is not budgeted for?
Maybe this the way I planning is now heading. An aviation training vessel supplied by Serco and the PCRS capability moved to the proposed HADR platforms.
Might not be a bad outcome
Maybe this the way I planning is now heading. An aviation training vessel supplied by Serco and the PCRS capability moved to the proposed HADR platforms.
Might not be a bad outcome
- ArmChairCivvy
- Senior Member
- Posts: 16312
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
I agree.Poiuytrewq wrote: An aviation training vessel supplied by Serco and the PCRS capability moved to the proposed HADR platforms.
Might not be a bad outcome
So we buy the former from Damen Vietnam, and the latter from..?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Anywhere in the UKArmChairCivvy wrote:and the latter from..?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5597
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
I guess UK is now doing aviation training in Wave and/or Tides?
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
What people are forgetting is that RFA Argus as per her predecessor RFA Engadine has a Aviation Support role also. This will continue to be needed (probably more so) as we seem to be going from 3-4 Flatops (3 CVS + 1 LPH) plus RFA Argus in the late 90s down to 2 (albeit larger) deployable platforms. Given the importance, investment, and dare I say large size of the UKs helicopter fleet, a third dedicated flattop is a bare minimum IMO.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
That would have been a good contract to throw Babcock's way - they already have experience of building to license with the Vard designs
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Both the Rotterdam and Johan de Witt have role 2 medical facilities and can support six or four Merlin sized helicopters respectively. The latter, operated by the RFA would make an ideal replacement for Argus, whilst also being part of the next generation ARG.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1029
- Joined: 23 Jul 2016, 22:46
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Aviation training should normally include operating from ships with more than one deck landing spot. This element of the training is what Argus provides, and can not be provided by Waves or Tides.donald_of_tokyo wrote:I guess UK is now doing aviation training in Wave and/or Tides?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5597
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
RAN’s aviation training ship, by Serco, has only one spot. French navy’s RFI ship also did not had multi-spot. So, many, if not all, of the training can be done on Waves and Tides?
- shark bait
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6427
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
HAD an aviation support role, then deemed unnecessary and deleted with the conversion to a medical facility.Repulse wrote:What people are forgetting is that RFA Argus as per her predecessor RFA Engadine has a Aviation Support role also.
This sounds highly likely, both the French and Australians do this, I expect the UK will follow. It sounds like a cheap way to provide a training service, whilst keeping the valuable RFA focused on their core role.Poiuytrewq wrote:An aviation training vessel supplied by Serco
My suggestion is don't replace Argus, instead moving the medical facilities to another platform, and contract an aviation training ship.
Maybe the MOD thing the same, worth noting the Argus is due out of service in 2024, but the future afloat medical capability is not due in service until 2035, which is about the same time as a new amphibious platform.
@LandSharkUK
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1029
- Joined: 23 Jul 2016, 22:46
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
It was not just that it was deemed unnecessary, but also it was found during the Balkans conflict that Argus was incapable of adequately fulfilling that role.shark bait wrote:HAD an aviation support role, then deemed unnecessary and deleted with the conversion to a medical facility.Repulse wrote:What people are forgetting is that RFA Argus as per her predecessor RFA Engadine has a Aviation Support role also.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Were any recommendations made at the time as to what would have been more suitable? Something on the scale of Ocean perhaps?Aethulwulf wrote:....it was found during the Balkans conflict that Argus was incapable of adequately fulfilling that role.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
A Serco aviation training vessel seems highly likely at this stage although if 2 landing spots and a large hanger are required it will be very interesting as to what form it will take.shark bait wrote:My suggestion is don't replace Argus, instead moving the medical facilities to another platform, and contract an aviation training ship.
When you propose moving the PCRS facilities to another vessel are you suggesting an existing vessel?
If the Bay in the Caribbean was relieved by a decent sized commercial logistics vessel or a modified Wave, a Johan De Witt PCRS conversion of an existing Bay would be one possibility.
I would like to see what we have in the water maximised before looking to procure anything else.
- shark bait
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6427
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
The MOD needs a cheap way to maintain at sea hours for pilots for all three services, a contracted PSV is an easy way to achieve that.
I then suggest we build the future afloat medical capability into one of these;
I then suggest we build the future afloat medical capability into one of these;
- The Waves replacement in 2030
- The Bays replacement in 2032
- The LPD replacement in 2035
@LandSharkUK
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
If Argus decommissions in 2024 that would be between a 6 and 11 year gap. Surely this is unacceptable.shark bait wrote: The Waves replacement in 2030
The Bays replacement in 2032
The LPD replacement in 2035
There are in service examples of medical facilities on all of the above, just need to pick which is best for us.
I don't disagree with your proposal in principle but it would need to include a suitable temporary arrangement to get from 2024 into the 2030's.
- shark bait
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6427
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
We know the MOD dont mind a gap, and under their current plan Look the future afloat medical capability comes in 2035. Perhaps its no coincidence thats the same date as the LPD replacements.
Is a gap really the end of the world?
Is a gap really the end of the world?
@LandSharkUK
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
IMO we need to get out this habit of these gaps, politians who set the budget get far to use to gaps and keep thinking we can get away with it when it only takes once to be caught out ( regarding gaps over all no just Argus )shark bait wrote:We know the MOD dont mind a gap, and under their current plan Look the future afloat medical capability comes in 2035. Perhaps its no coincidence thats the same date as the LPD replacements.
Is a gap really the end of the world?
With the rising tension in the world the top brass need to kick the politians in to touch with this, but unfortunately too many top brass are happy to no rock the boat out of fear of losing out personally.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
It may be if you are a casualty looking for a PCRS vessel to take care of youshark bait wrote:Is a gap really the end of the world?
Are the newly proposed HADR vessels aimed at plugging the gap?