Future Solid Support Ship

[donald_of_tokyo]

Minimum is we need two Fort I replacements- pure stores, and would argue single helicopter hangar. Fuel comes from the Tides. Given the budget pressure, let’s keep it simple.

In parallel keep RFA Victoria running as a backup for the next 10 years, and then replace, perhaps basing EoS to be part of a forward based Task Group which would have a LPD also.

May be Fort Victoria be stationed at extended readiness. Even though the hull is there, I'm afraid crews are not. Manning two SSS will needs 200-300 crews and "one more" might be un-realistic. The "3rd hull" is good, as the others can go into long refit, and keep 2 hulls always "ready" (and 1 hull always deployed).

[Lord Jim]

Victory can do other role due to its large helo capacity

I know we are looking at doing wore with what we have, but pressing HMS Voctory into service to support the Carriers is going a bit far!

[Jake1992]

Victory can do other role due to its large helo capacity

I know we are looking at doing wore with what we have, but pressing HMS Voctory into service to support the Carriers is going a bit far!

Dam typos on the phone but the way we’re going it’ll probily end up coming true

[Repulse]

May be Fort Victoria be stationed at extended readiness. Even though the hull is there, I'm afraid crews are not. Manning two SSS will needs 200-300 crews and "one more" might be un-realistic. The "3rd hull" is good, as the others can go into long refit, and keep 2 hulls always "ready" (and 1 hull always deployed).

Agree that RFA manning is a key concern. I would say however in terms of prioritisation I’d prioritise RFA Victoria (with its multi-role and aviation facilities) ahead of the Waves.

New reality is that the 4 Tide Tankers will be tied up for most of their time to the Carriers and CEPP. Most other ships will be forward based, so assume limited tanker requirements. Having RFA Victoria would make a East of Suez LSG more of a reality with the ships we have today.

[jonas]

I wonder whether the current situation and subsequent job losses might benefit recruiting for the RFA, as well as for the armed forces in general. Also they have just had a 2% pay rise. Not a huge amount but better than the 1.5% of the original offer.

https://www.nautilusint.org/en/news-ins ... -pay-rise/

[RichardIC]

Surprised this has taken so long to get on here.

So what was the workforce at Harland and Wolff? 130 I think.

So they're not going to be able to build a vessel that size. They may be able to stick together modules built elsewhere (like Spain).

They're being used as a Trojan Horse?

[ArmChairCivvy]

not going to be able to build a vessel that size. They may be able to stick together modules built elsewhere (like Spain).

They're being used as a Trojan Horse?

Does that matter much? More importantly. if Navantia's offer (even modified) will be the choice, then the size of the ship (must have something to do with capability) will adhere to a goal post 'much moved'.

[SW1]

Posted it a few hours ago on the shipbuilding thread.

Would suggest they’ll do what ever other shipyard in the uk does bring in contractors mainly from Eastern Europe.

[dmereifield]

Surprised this has taken so long to get on here.

So what was the workforce at Harland and Wolff? 130 I think.

So they're not going to be able to build a vessel that size. They may be able to stick together modules built elsewhere (like Spain).

They're being used as a Trojan Horse?

Can't see the politics (and post Covid, post Brexot spending plans) allowing the majority of the work and funds going abroad in that manner

[Jensy]

Definitely not bad news for UK shipbuilding, though quite how 'good' the news is will depend on a number of factors.

1) How determined is the government to build here at likely far greater cost?
2) How confident are the contractors that they can deliver on time/budget.
3) Is there the capacity in British shipbuilding considering all the recent casualties to the industry.

Of the original five bidders:

Team UK - (BAE/CL/RR) - Presumably still in the running? RR did the concept design for the new NZ logistics ship (below), could be scaling up the design? Babcock are going to be very busy with Type 31 but the Goliath crane doesn't seem to be part of that project.


Team Resolute - (Navantia/BMT/H&W) - Partial UK build. Boost for N.Ireland and keeps the H&W drydock away from developers. The bid to beat? Nice bit of CGI always helps..


Fincantieri - Seemed hungry for it as they supposedly re-entered the bidding after withdrawing. Vuclano class looks impressive (below) and already optimised for operating two Merlins. The French are building four variants at Chantiers de L'Atlantique so there might be some flexibility for UK construction.


Japanese Marine United - UKDJ claimed they were still in the competition when it was cancelled. No idea where they stand or what they're offering but I expect like Daewoo their strength is in building at their domestic Japanese facilities.

Daewoo - Can't see them building anywhere but their world-class facilities in RoK (Tide Class issues aside). Probably politically difficult for the government to send another order that way, especially as they've halted their programme for more ASW Wildcats.

[shark bait]

If I were the customer I would prefer it built in Spain to avoid a quality nightmare.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what the benefit of a new fabricator is just for two ships.

[Jake1992]

If I were the customer I would prefer it built in Spain to avoid a quality nightmare.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what the benefit of a new fabricator is just for two ships.

It’s more about the political aspect of it all, but looking down the what do we need building out to 2040 odd and what capacity will be available ?

8 x T26 out till 2034 odd
6 x T4X early 2030s to 2040
5 x T31 our till 2030 odd
Maybe X number of sloops following T31

If nothing else is built in the UK all other yards will go bust so where will be build the Bay and Albion replacements ?

[shark bait]

No additional capacity needed. It will be a struggle to keep the three British producer's busy, so there's no requirement for a fourth.

[Jensy]

No additional capacity needed. It will be a struggle to keep the three British producer's busy, so there's no requirement for a fourth.

Appreciate they're highly focused on building subs now but there's also Barrow to consider, further spreading skills around the country.

The more shipyards, the less investment available for any single one to actually develop into a facility that could compete globally or win export orders. Considering even BAE can't build a shed to assemble a frigate in one piece.

[Tempest414]

If the HMG want to invest in the UK then as I have said time and again it can with a 1.1 billion per year over the next 30 years allowing for

15 x tier 1 escorts ( one very 2 years at 450 million per year )
8 x tier 2 escorts ( one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
16 x 95 meter multi mission sloops ( one very year at 150 million per year
3 x SSS ( one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
3 x Bay replacements (one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
2 x LHD (one built over 4 years at 300 million per year )

I feel this is enough work to keep 4 yards open like so

BAE tier 1 escorts
Babcock tier 2 escorts and Multi mission sloops
CL & H&W SSS , LSD's , LHD

Edit in the first 6 years of this plan there is 250 million a years for off board systems and between year 6 and 12 this drops to 100 million

[Jake1992]

If the HMG want to invest in the UK then as I have said time and again it can with a 1.1 billion per year over the next 30 years allowing for

15 x tier 1 escorts ( one very 2 years at 450 million per year )
8 x tier 2 escorts ( one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
16 x 95 meter multi mission sloops ( one very year at 150 million per year
3 x SSS ( one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
3 x Bay replacements (one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
1 x LHD (one built over 4 years at 300 million per year )

I feel this is enough work to keep 4 yards open like so

BAE tier 1 escorts
Babcock tier 2 escorts and Multi mission sloops
CL & H&W SSS , LSD's , LHD

This is what I was getting at up thread, it seems like the current 2 surface builder will be taken up by the escorts and potential sloops over the next 20 years odd. So what does that leave for the larger vessels like the Bays and Albion replacement, if the FSS goes abroad then the remaining capacity out side of the 2 escort builders goes to the wall and suddenly we need to build the Bay and Albion replacements abroad.

[ArmChairCivvy]

if the FSS goes abroad then the remaining capacity

...

To me it looks like it is only a matter of how many blocks we will lose to the storms of the Bay of Biscay while on their way to here

[RichardIC]

BAE tier 1 escorts
Babcock tier 2 escorts and Multi mission sloops
CL & H&W SSS , LSD's , LHD

But there is no requirement for multi-mission sloops, which seem to be an invention of this board, or LSDs or LHD, and I'm sorry I'm not sure what SSS stands for.

[ArmChairCivvy]

not sure what SSS stands for

generic for FSS?

[Jake1992]

BAE tier 1 escorts
Babcock tier 2 escorts and Multi mission sloops
CL & H&W SSS , LSD's , LHD

But there is no requirement for multi-mission sloops, which seem to be an invention of this board, or LSDs or LHD, and I'm sorry I'm not sure what SSS stands for.

So what replaces the mcm and survey vessels or the current role undertaken by the RB2s when they’re need in the EEZ ?
What replaces the bays and Albion’s in the mid 2030s ?
Are we just to not bother ?

The FSS not being built in the UK would have a 3 fold effect in capacity, jobs and political damage, but it should not just fall on the MOD to pick up the whole bill. IMO if HMG decided they want UK built to maintain jobs and to stop the political fall out then they need other departments to help the MOD out with the extra expense of this.

[RichardIC]

So what replaces the mcm and survey vessels or the current role undertaken by the RB2s when they’re need in the EEZ ?

I get the question. But the answer being multi-mission sloops seems to have been made up here.

3 fold effect in capacity, jobs and political damage

In the real world only the latter counts (unfortunately).

it should not just fall on the MOD to pick up the whole bill. IMO if HMG decided they want UK built to maintain jobs and to stop the political fall out then they need other departments to help the MOD out with the extra expense of this.

What are you suggesting? And please don't say DFID.

[shark bait]

Appreciate they're highly focused on building subs now but there's also Barrow to consider, further spreading skills around the country.

Yep, I nearly included them, but thought people would shout at me for calling them a shipbuilder

[Jake1992]

So what replaces the mcm and survey vessels or the current role undertaken by the RB2s when they’re need in the EEZ ?

I get the question. But the answer being multi-mission sloops seems to have been made up here.

3 fold effect in capacity, jobs and political damage

In the real world only the latter counts (unfortunately).

it should not just fall on the MOD to pick up the whole bill. IMO if HMG decided they want UK built to maintain jobs and to stop the political fall out then they need other departments to help the MOD out with the extra expense of this.

What are you suggesting? And please don't say DFID.

I think the idea of the multi mission sloop came about from the MHCP concept but also looking at the route some other nations are taking. There a 2 destince roles that will need to be filled by low end vessel, 1 been a mother ship to the off board systems and 2 being low end patrol where a frigate would be over kill.



Yes the political fall out is normally the only factor take in to account by HMG but with Brexit and with COVID the other 2 points would feed in to the political fall out if not acted upon.


While I do strongly think the whole 0.7% DFID needs to be cut a reworked to be based on out come not on money spent, I was think more along the lines of departments responsible for business and industry helping out as that is what “ship building” is and the MOD is only meant to be a customer.

For UK ship building to become both stable and competitive it needs investment in to a “large” ship builder and by that I mean the size of the vessels not numbers. Currently we could have a specialised sub builder, a specialised tier 1 escort builder and a tier 2 escort / low end builder but nothing in the large vessel building. This is where the FSS comes in with other departmental help so not to put industrial build up solely on the MOD.

[Tempest414]

But there is no requirement for multi-mission sloops, which seem to be an invention of this board, or LSDs or LHD, and I'm sorry I'm not sure what SSS stands for.

As Jake has said there will be a requirement to replace the Hunts , Sandown and Echo class from around 2028 and any ship that replaces them will need to operate the off board kit as tasked and will there be multi mission i.e MCM , Hydrographic and at some level patrol

as for the FSS there is a need and if these where started in 2024 on the 2 year drum beat and then followed with a LPD replacement whether this is another LPD or a LHD this ship would hit the water in 2034 in time to replace the Albion's which have a OSD of 2034 and as said this could lead into a Bay class replacement given by 2036 when the first of these would hit the water the Bays would be 30 years old

So you are right there is no fixed requirement but as said if HMG is looking to support ship building in the UK for at least the next 20 to 25 years there is in my mind program of ship building that could be followed

[RichardIC]

Yeah, you need a proper planning cycle. That applies to just about every level of public expenditure, now more than ever. Not a hope with this shower unfortunately.