Current & Future Coastal Forces - General Discussion

[Repulse]

Given the announcement that government is renaming the 1st Patrol Boat Squadron to now be the Coastal Forces Squadron, it begs the question what is driving the change and what is the future vision.



Given that it mainly (if not solely?) consists of 14 P2000 Archer Class patrol craft, is this just a political name change, or are we looking at a change of direction where this force will become a more permanent (rather than URNU) security force with additional roles (and kit) such as port security and coastal MCM. Will it also be solely a UK force or (as it has operated) a global force operating in places such as the Baltics, Mediterranean or even Gulf?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Isn't there another, overseas patrol sqdrn, for the RB2s?
- logically the RB1s will have fall somewhere (while they are still 'working' as opposed to being mothballed). It is a long time since the UK maintained a 'reserve fleet' as opposed to rotation. Our last cruisers did not make it to Falklands and the effort made it clear what it costs to 'bring back' a ship.

[dmereifield]

Are the River B1 not part of the CFS?

[Repulse]

ArmChairCivvy, I’ve added another thread to discuss the role and capabilities of the new Overseas Patrol Squadron - currently it seems that the B1s sit there but it’s not clear as the new RN page is nonsense.

[Opinion3]

Does this not indicate broadly what we already know. We will have a continuous at sea deterrent, a carrier task group, some effective amphibious capabilities and the new OPS/CFS capabilities to free up escorts. The reality is the Royal Navy lacks the number of escorts outside these duties to patrol merchant shipping lanes or act as merchant shipping escorts. We also have insufficient T45s to act as an air defence front line (e.g. like during the olympics) for the main land.

The RN has at least freed up tasks shared with the escorts so this makes sense especially as we can expect fisherman battles with the Spanish and French. My comments above were made in full consideration of the on task utilisation rate of our RN fleet (both past, present and future). No business would expect to operate with such a low state of readiness and be competitive. This is something that is finally being tackled (I hope).

Forward basing must surely help if we don't have the numbers to generate and protect good supply lines.

[Tempest414]

Interesting as said it could be no more than a name change however with 10 years until the P2000's OSD it could be away of working up a proper coastal force for me I would like to see this force get 2 new classes maybe something like 12 Barracuda 19m boats and 12 40 meter fast patrol boats with a range of 1000 nm at 30 knots. Add to this I feel both classes should get the GAU-19 and the 40 meter boat should also be able to fit and launch Sea Venom

[SW1]

I hope this will lead to more importance and investment in this area within defence rather than just a rebranding or exercise. The uk moving to bring in a uk equivalent to the US mk 6 patrol boat for use across a range of operations both manned and unmanned would be a welcome development.

[Jake1992]

I hope this will lead to more importance and investment in this area within defence rather than just a rebranding or exercise. The uk moving to bring in a uk equivalent to the US mk 6 patrol boat for use across a range of operations both manned and unmanned would be a welcome development.

Iv thought for a while that the RN should be looking at buying the Mk6 Patrol boat as a replacement for the Archers. They would be useful not just in port protection and training but also in patrol in the Caribbean and gulf along with being used in literal control ops from the well dock of an Albion.

[Repulse]

I’d say the role of the Coastal Forces should be the following within coastal waters
- Port Protection
- Force Protection
- Anti-terrorism
- Surveillance
- Underwater Survey
- Shallow water MCM and ASW

Given that this would include inland waterways and rivers, then I think two vessel sizes are required 15-20m and 40-60m in length, both armed and capable of operating drones.

[Aethulwulf]

I’d say the role of the Coastal Forces should be the following within coastal waters
- Port Protection
- Force Protection
- Anti-terrorism
- Surveillance
- Underwater Survey
- Shallow water MCM and ASW

Given that this would include inland waterways and rivers, then I think two vessel sizes are required 15-20m and 40-60m in length, both armed and capable of operating drones.

What utter nonsense.

Port Protection: Protection from whom? What op forces are threats to UK ports, apart from terrorists - which you have listed separately.
Force Protection: Again, protection from whom? What is the threat to UK armed forces operating in UK coastal waters? Why would they need additional armed protection?
Anti-terrorism: Ok, coastal forces might have a role here, but it is a small one. Providing a means for SF to respond to off-shore terrorists events. Most of anti-terrorism is police work and intelligence gathering.
Surveillance: What is the subject of surveillance? There are no enemy forces operating in UK coastal waters. Are you talking about criminal activities? Is this really a RN issue?
Underwater survey: Do you just mean HMS Magpie? Why should that one ship be under a separate command structure to the other survey ships Echo, Enterprise and Scott. How does that make things better?
Shallow water MCM and ASW. So you think this should be under coastal force command when it is done within 12 miles of the UK, but other commands when done elsewhere. How does that improve things?

[Repulse]

Aethulwulf, It all depends on your view if this is purely a UK based force or a force that is UK & Globally deployed at UK forward naval bases. I see it as the latter, and as such each of my items stand.

Whilst MCM and ASW will be Common across the navy, I am focusing on both the platforms and ensuring an integrated force for the specific operating zone. Also, yes Magpie is part of the Survey Squadron, but in the future I can see drones and other off board systems taking on the role from dedicated ships.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Aethulwulf, It all depends on your view if this is purely a UK based force or a force that is UK & Globally deployed at UK forward naval bases. I see it as the latter, and as such each of my items stand.

Whilst MCM and ASW will be Common across the navy, I am focusing on both the platforms and ensuring an integrated force for the specific operating zone. Also, yes Magpie is part of the Survey Squadron, but in the future I can see drones and other off board systems taking on the role from dedicated ships.

Sorry from aside.

But Repulse-san. Isn't it within the "Overseas Patrol Squadron" issue? For me, "Overseas" means both coastal and blue-water, around BOT.

[Tempest414]

Aethulwulf, It all depends on your view if this is purely a UK based force or a force that is UK & Globally deployed at UK forward naval bases. I see it as the latter, and as such each of my items stand.

Whilst MCM and ASW will be Common across the navy, I am focusing on both the platforms and ensuring an integrated force for the specific operating zone. Also, yes Magpie is part of the Survey Squadron, but in the future I can see drones and other off board systems taking on the role from dedicated ships.

Sorry from aside.

But Repulse-san. Isn't it within the "Overseas Patrol Squadron" issue? For me, "Overseas" means both coastal and blue-water, around BOT.

However the same could be said for Coastal Forces Squadron could mean any Coast or river way it does not say UK Coastal Forces Squadron

[Aethulwulf]

Aethulwulf, It all depends on your view if this is purely a UK based force or a force that is UK & Globally deployed at UK forward naval bases. I see it as the latter, and as such each of my items stand.

Whilst MCM and ASW will be Common across the navy, I am focusing on both the platforms and ensuring an integrated force for the specific operating zone. Also, yes Magpie is part of the Survey Squadron, but in the future I can see drones and other off board systems taking on the role from dedicated ships.

This makes even less sense.

If you are talking about Bahrain or Singapore, nearly all my original questions still apply but the overarching question is why are these activities not being covered the Bahrain or Singapore forces? What is the point of a UK coastal force protecting someone else's coast, when host nation forces can do it perfectly well?

If you are talking about Gibraltar or the Falklands or the Caribbean, then my original questions remain. What is the threat? Who is threatening these ports? Why do UK forces in these area need additional force protection?

[Repulse]

Aethulwulf, I was thinking in a number of scenarios, both in peace and war (we tend to forget what would be needed in the latter). We already have craft escorting SSBNs in and out of Faslane, we have (albeit) Police craft escorting out the carriers and guarding them at berth, we have craft escorting in warships and SSNs in Gibraltar and in the past we’ve had them based off of Cyprus. Also as always in times of war, all bases will come targets especially those that can support our CBGs and SSNs - seems stupid not to try and protect them.

[Aethulwulf]

Aethulwulf, I was thinking in a number of scenarios, both in peace and war (we tend to forget what would be needed in the latter). We already have craft escorting SSBNs in and out of Faslane, we have (albeit) Police craft escorting out the carriers and guarding them at berth, we have craft escorting in warships and SSNs in Gibraltar and in the past we’ve had them based off of Cyprus. Also as always in times of war, all bases will come targets especially those that can support our CBGs and SSNs - seems stupid not to try and protect them.

What you are describing is basic constabulary duties. I can't see why they host nation forces can't continue to conduct them in Bahrain or Singapore, or what is wrong with the present arrangements in Gibraltar or UK naval bases. You don't make a case.

As for the statement, "as always in times of war, all bases will come targets", please name one conflict in the past 50 years when a UK naval base was targeted by enemy forces.

[Repulse]

name one conflict in the past 50 years when a UK naval base was targeted by enemy forces.

Gibraltar in the Falklands War - Operation Algeciras

[Aethulwulf]

name one conflict in the past 50 years when a UK naval base was targeted by enemy forces.

Gibraltar in the Falklands War - Operation Algeciras

This operation was very terrorist-like and was stopped by intelligence gathering and the (Spanish) police, not by Coastal Patrol boats.

Hard to see how this one example from 38 years ago in anyway justifies your odd plan. If this is really the threat, then underwater diver detection systems within the harbour are a more sensible plan.

Any demand for a new or up rated capability must be driven by a credible threat assessment. This will ensure that the best methods for countering the threat are then developed and deployed.

You appear to have developed your own fantasy plan first, and have yet to suggest a credible threat that could justify why money should be spent on it. Why would your system of a global coastal force be any better than the current system? What is the gap in the current capability? How does your proposal solve it?

[Tempest414]

First off we need to know if this is just a name change or not and if it is a real change what are the P2000's going to get in the way of armament and kit I would say if this is a real change and the boats are going to be used by the Coastal Force Squadron in the same way as the US Coastal Riverine Force then a weapon package pool for all 14 boats needs to be something like

8 x GAU-19
10 x 12.7 HMG's
28 x GPMG

This for me is hard hitting enough but keeps logistics well within the possible and the boats should be fitted with 3 mounts that can take all 3 weapon types.

Again if this is a real change then as the P2000's are replaced we need a boat that can cross the North Sea into the Baltic sea and Norwegian fjords at high speed and insert SF and help protect sealift and other assets

[Repulse]

You appear to have developed your own fantasy plan first, and have yet to suggest a credible threat that could justify why money should be spent on it. Why would your system of a global coastal force be any better than the current system? What is the gap in the current capability? How does your proposal solve it?

I do not know why you are calling it a Fantasy plan - what I am doing is stating what could be a potential role for a newly branded force - my view is all is relevant albeit to differing degrees. The RN has a history of ignoring these (light force) capabilities until very late, I am hoping this is a change of mindset. You will also note I have not speculated on specific kit needed, just general platform sizes that match the broad requirements and are in place from other navies.

Where is the gap? I’d say that the RN is poorly prepared for a situation where it’s UK and “global” coastal waters are threatened - it focuses on the large assets (which is ok), but gives less focus the fact that they are vulnerable close to shore and in port. If I was an enemy I would target ships in their home parts or navigating through choke points, than try and fight them on the high seas. The fact that “war” is not binary but different shades of grey, makes this more important.

I also think that with the increased use of drones, the threat is enhanced and any forces need to be able to tackle threats below the water and in the air, not just on the surface. This drone threat is both direct but also indirect acting in a surveillance or targeting role for other assets.

Am I arguing for a brand new fleet of X of shiny new toys - no. But to not to focus on it with a dedicated force would be a mistake.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The fact that “war” is not binary but different shades of grey, makes this more important.

I also think that with the increased use of drones, the threat is enhanced

A valid point, though the answer is not necessarily organisational (or the assets could simply be designed to be dual use). I noted that on the new Dutch navy CSS (to take the load off the single, bigger JSS) had davits sized not only for RHIBs (rescue or liaison use) but allowing the RHIBs to be swapped for interceptor boats... didn't cost much extra (you can buy the interceptor boats later, if mission profiles/ geographical areas for the missions evolve in a way that would point to such a need).

[Repulse]

A valid point, though the answer is not necessarily organisational

Fair point also - Though by having a Coastal Forces organisation, it ensures these things are not lost in overall priorities, skills can be honed and developed, and also the operating model for these forces will be different than for forces who operate for months away from home.

[Aethulwulf]

Where is the gap? I’d say that the RN is poorly prepared for a situation where it’s UK and “global” coastal waters are threatened

By whom and how?

The only example you provide is terrorists style attacks. If this is the case, then the UK response should be to increase resource for intelligence and police forces, with coastal naval forces only really providing a visible deterrent role.

It you are talking about something like the attack on the USS Cole, this could have been prevented by better intelligence so that the ship would have decided not to go into Aden to refuel, or possibly use more robust rules of engagement that would have allowed the crew to open fire to defend themselves.

A global coastal Patrol organisation just isn't the answer to this problem.

[ArmChairCivvy]

also the operating model for these forces will be different than for forces who operate for months away from home.

Valid...fair... the above is a good! point. Let's just look at how the RB1s operate (though I have not seen anything exact):
- crew part drawn from the MCM fleet (regulars, but it has been assessed that the only mines our neighbours will be laying are between the lines in proposals made in the current negotiations)
- part from RN reserves; a great use of reserves. Especially as the fish war might not break out, the vessels go back into mothball and this part of the crews to their civilian jobs

Inbuilt flex... and this actually is (or would be) partly an organisational solution - though in the example case an improvised one

[Aethulwulf]

There may well be a case for ships like the T26 and T31 to carry a more robust patrol craft than the current RHIBS. But any suggestion that as soon as they offload them that they should come under the command of another organisation is not sensible.