Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[Lord Jim]

I suppose if one was being optimistic, the USMC showcasing some of their capabilities and platforms on such a high profile deployment may open doors for the UK and possibly loosen the Treasury's purse strings

[SW1]

It’s not underwhelming it’s reality rather than the fiction that’s been going round for years.

When us marines put this number of f35s to seat in the Pacific and elsewhere it’s considered a strategic statement why should we be any different.

I think it’s seen as disappointing by most due to what the QE can put out when compared to a USMC LHD / LHA, 16 is pretty close to making them out but would only really 2/5 of what a QE at max could do.

I also think due to all the talk of her operating 20-24 in her first deployment most were thinking 20 odd would be normal with 12-14 helos as we built up our F35 fleet.

It Does matter how big the box is but if what you have to put into the box is tiny then what you can get out is also tiny. Make no mistake the size of the fastjet force and the helicopter force available to the carrier is small, in fact smaller than what was available to the invincible class.

[Ron5]

It’s not underwhelming it’s reality rather than the fiction that’s been going round for years.

When us marines put this number of f35s to seat in the Pacific and elsewhere it’s considered a strategic statement why should we be any different.

I think it’s seen as disappointing by most due to what the QE can put out when compared to a USMC LHD / LHA, 16 is pretty close to making them out but would only really 2/5 of what a QE at max could do.

I also think due to all the talk of her operating 20-24 in her first deployment most were thinking 20 odd would be normal with 12-14 helos as we built up our F35 fleet.

It Does matter how big the box is but if what you have to put into the box is tiny then what you can get out is also tiny. Make no mistake the size of the fastjet force and the helicopter force available to the carrier is small, in fact smaller than what was available to the invincible class.

Three cheers for the RAF, hip, hip hurrah, ... come on lads, hip, hip, ... oh forget it.

[Timmymagic]

Be fun if the Marines brought along some V-22's and they did some a2a refueling of both the F-35's and Merlins.

Maybe "fun" isn't the right word. You know what I mean. Informative maybe.

Will they actually have VARS ready then, its gone a little quiet on it recently...

[Ron5]

Be fun if the Marines brought along some V-22's and they did some a2a refueling of both the F-35's and Merlins.

Maybe "fun" isn't the right word. You know what I mean. Informative maybe.

Will they actually have VARS ready then, its gone a little quiet on it recently...

Thought it was supposed to be operational by now.

[planeaviation]

Did the F35 depart this week from the queen Elizabeth

[Tempest414]

Well that was quite an optimistic agenda laid out up to and including CSG 21, though the air group for the latter is decidedly underwhelming with 16 F-35 and 8 Merlins, plus any additional assets the USMC may wish to bring along.

I have to say that I would be happy with the QE class having a standard air-wing of 20 F-35 , 6 ASW , 3 AEW and 4 HC-4 Merlin's. once again I would say we really need think about making the F-35 squadrons 10 jet units with the view of ending up with 5 front line units 3 RAF and 2 FAA

[Timmymagic]

I have to say that I would be happy with the QE class having a standard air-wing of 20 F-35 , 6 ASW , 3 AEW and 4 HC-4 Merlin's.

It's generally accepted that to provide 24-7 ASW coverage of a TF that you need 8-9 ASW helos at a minimum, carrying 6 HM.2 only works if you're carrying 2-3 HM.2 on the escorts as well. For AEW coverage you need 4-5 helos (the French only carrying 2 E-2C's guarantees that they cannot provide 24 hr coverage). This is why getting the 8 HM.1 restored to flight status and HM.2 standard should be the first priority for the RN if they ever get any additional money for kit.

[Timmymagic]

Thought it was supposed to be operational by now.

Nope. It's gone very quiet recently, that might not mean anything bad but its usually not a great sign.

[Jake1992]

Thought it was supposed to be operational by now.

Nope. It's gone very quiet recently, that might not mean anything bad but its usually not a great sign.

Thought it was supposed to be operational by now.

Nope. It's gone very quiet recently, that might not mean anything bad but its usually not a great sign.

I heard they’ve also been looking at an unmanned system based on the v-247 just like they are for AEW, this might be a reason the V-22 base has gone quiet until they know what routes best

[Enigmatically]

a room with lots of CCTV screens and engine monitoring screens (but not the ops room)

That will have been the Ship Control Centre (SCC) I suspect. Looks like this (can't hotlink it, sorry)
https://www.alamy.com/crew-members-work ... 70603.html

Rules on visitors to the Ops room seem to go through cycles. Problem is that if they turn off all the interesting bits you largely just see a lot of desks with computer screens, like below. Even the old style consoles are gone so it looks increasingly like an office.

As to the size of PWLS, any changes to waterline beam or height would require substantial modification to the dock entrance and bridges respectively

[Dahedd]

Don't know if anyone has seen the Times today but there's a 2 page rant about the carriers from Max Hastings. Guys a complete pillock.

[Dahedd]

This is why getting the 8 HM.1 restored to flight status and HM.2 standard should be the first priority for the RN if they ever get any additional money for kit.

Pretty sure you've had that mate. I think one of the 4 was donated to the Moriva aviation meseum in Kinloss recently as an outdoor display.

[Ron5]

Don't know if anyone has seen the Times today but there's a 2 page rant about the carriers from Max Hastings. Guys a complete pillock.

Got that right:

"yada, yada, yada, generals don't like carriers, yada, yada, yada, wrong statements about carriers, yada, yada, yada, need a bigger army, yada yada"

Only thing funnier were the comments. A leftie Times of London is difficult to get used to.

[Ron5]

Well that was quite an optimistic agenda laid out up to and including CSG 21, though the air group for the latter is decidedly underwhelming with 16 F-35 and 8 Merlins, plus any additional assets the USMC may wish to bring along.

I have to say that I would be happy with the QE class having a standard air-wing of 20 F-35 , 6 ASW , 3 AEW and 4 HC-4 Merlin's. once again I would say we really need think about making the F-35 squadrons 10 jet units with the view of ending up with 5 front line units 3 RAF and 2 FAA

Read the STRN article, you'll get your wish and more in 2024. Standard deployment then and going forward will be 24 jets plus gazillions of helos in support.

By the way, it should be 4x12 RN squadrons plus 18 aircraft RN OCU. What's with this RAF crap?

[serge750]

I don't think it's too shabby for a first deployment, way better than the previous CVL could do maxed out,

Obiously it could be better, but as said, it will be in a couple of years, will be good for trying out the interoperability issues that may arise for operating more than a handful of F35, plus hopefully it will not cause a total flip out from china as it's way of the capacity of an American CVN, but will showboat the UK's new capability.

Would be great if it could meet up with CdeG then Cavour, Vikramaditya then a Australinan LHD that would be AWSOME to see but would take some good timing

[Jensy]

Don't know if anyone has seen the Times today but there's a 2 page rant about the carriers from Max Hastings. Guys a complete pillock.

Was pulling my hair out by the end.

The whole piece would have a lot more weight if he wasn't calling for more tanks and infantry. Seriously how many does he think we would be able to afford/deploy in order to impress these 'American Generals' he is so close to?

A pity that a once respected historian seems to be losing his rationality. Though appreciate he has suffered some tragic events, the last decent thing he created was that documentary on the Vickers Wellington they built in 24hrs.

[Jensy]

By the way, it should be 4x12 RN squadrons plus 18 aircraft RN OCU. What's with this RAF crap?

You guys got some low mileage, Turk A models going on the cheap? Could make everyone happy.

[Roders96]

Here's to hoping Tempest is stobar at least.

[Timmymagic]

Pretty sure you've had that mate. I think one of the 4 was donated to the Moriva aviation meseum in Kinloss recently as an outdoor display.

Apparently there's one in Karup in Denmark now...wtf. Insane.

In that case I will have to adjust my plan to purchasing the Italian ASH variant and re-building....

[Ron5]

Pretty sure you've had that mate. I think one of the 4 was donated to the Moriva aviation meseum in Kinloss recently as an outdoor display.

Apparently there's one in Karup in Denmark now...wtf. Insane.

In that case I will have to adjust my plan to purchasing the Italian ASH variant and re-building....

You'll be pleased to hear that the good folks of Yeovil that manufacture Merlins, voted for their Brexit hero and savior Boris so maybe they will be rewarded with a small top up order. I would think a dozen or so would be about right (500 million pounds)?

[serge750]

That would be good, would that be possible? even enough to cover the Crowsnest requirement would be good !!!

[Opinion3]

For AEW for a carrier group is it cheaper to get more E7? I think we need more crowsnest as well but in terms of vfm I wonder whether V22s or E7s would actually be cheaper in terms of total cost of ownership?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Sir Max and (Sir) Humphrey (the man in thin pinstripes) are doing carrier battle, and as per usual the rebuttal by the latter goes in circles, repeating the same things many times. However, he starts with a key sentence: "The problem the carrier faces is primarily the ingrained hostility to [from?] those who see them purely as naval assets"

Due to fickle politics and lack of funding (drip feed for everything, 'big ideas' included) we seem to be almost counter-cyclical to the US/ USN thinking. When their 'opposition' on the high seas disappeared, it was time for rethinking, for naval assets to stay relevant (and continue to enjoy 'build' budgets, securing not just the capacity to operate but also to build).

In the early '90s the USN (and joint) strategy shifted from a focus on a global threat to a focus on regional challenges and opportunities. If containing Iran looked like an opportunity then ( and a challenge now), nevermind and let's not get bogged down in detail.
- it was thought that national maritime policies could (then) afford to de-emphasize efforts in some naval warfare areas, affording a far greater emphasis on joint and combined "fire-brigade type of" operations
- that is the UK/ RN line now, when the US Pivot is reversing the priorities (to a degree)

Let's face it, in our case the "Seaward Capability" - i.e. the area from the open ocean to the shore which must be controlled to support operations ashore is more developed (currently) than the "Landward" - meaning the area inland from shore that can be supported and defended directly from the sea.
- while not forgetting sustainment (critical, and an 'uplift' might fit well into the "rescue British ship building" theme highlighted during the election)
- strategic sealift is also part of capacity to sustain, but currently perhaps in better shape than sustaining forces at sea or getting the first echelons to and over the shoreline

What next; once the above four areas have been brought to a balance? Wrong question as we at the same time need to get over the hump of SSBN replacement (deterrence would be a wrong term as the second wave of investment is awaiting in the '40s)
- pheww! the EP does not ' see' that far and hence the (this) Gvmnt will not need to worry about its funding.

Conclusion? Carrier wars will continue, but on wrong (partial) premises as we would first need to be clearer about what kind of expeditionary capability, overall, we should have/ build/ fund
... over to SDSR threads

[Timmymagic]

You'll be pleased to hear that the good folks of Yeovil that manufacture Merlins, voted for their Brexit hero and savior Boris so maybe they will be rewarded with a small top up order. I would think a dozen or so would be about right (500 million pounds)?

But at the same time...if they look at procurement Wastelands are in trouble...