We would have intelligence and surveillance to give us warning. We knew about Ukraine long before the attack happened. That gives you time to respond if you choose to heed the warnings. It’s not infallible. If a neighbour regularly exercises at scale on the border what is to stop a deep incursion a...

Finlands military is orders of magnitude bigger and more capable than any of the Baltic states. So regularly exercising with and having the time to rapidly deploy to support them is possible. Finlands military is very capable but it would take time to fully mobilise the reserves and the length of t...

An alternative could be like some of the NATO owned a/c fleet, NATO / JEF could have a common pool of transport ships. Perhaps but could they be kept busy without a commercial element? Not if they are a one trick LSL. The vessel would need to be something along the lines of: • 80m LOA • A NATO stan...

I don’t know what you mean by difference? Very simple. The U.K. led Joint Expeditionary Force is a rapid reaction force which is great up to a point but the intention was never to persistently deploy into JEF members countries. Between 2014 and 2022 there was no major war in Europe at the scale we ...

SW1 wrote: ↑05 Apr 2024, 17:42
The UK has been the lead framework nation for the JEF nations since 2014 and no huge ramifications have happened nor any huge expansion.

So why the difference between the Baltics and the Nordics in your opinion?

Much to agree on which is refreshing! I would be looking at fast patrol/multi-role craft and the <100m catalogue of Damen LSL/LSTs. The 30m class, low profile, fast patrol craft would be ideal especially if well dock compatible and able to carry a modest load of TEU and RHIBs. The LSL/LSTs really n...

i.e. flipped 180° to vs the opposite direction of travel that the few brief comments on 2022 Future Commando Force modernisation programme, with all of it's talk about going back to RM Commando raiding party roots from WW2. A U-turn like that would be excruciatingly embarrassing but is it possible ...

Well worth a read. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/04/us-navy-royal-rn-frigate-destroyer-submarine-russia-nato/. US Navy or Royal Navy – who’s best at hunting Russian submarines? Walk softly and carry a variable-depth sonar Today we’re going to discuss fighting Russian submarines using surf...

The reason for JEF was a group of 10 like minded nations that would come together to respond to or deter aggression using rapidly deploying forces with the uk as framework for it, along the Baltic, high north and North Atlantic. That grouping has been planning together for 10 years now. As that can...

10 reasons to be optimistic!

https://www.navylookout.com/10-reasons- ... oyal-navy/

SW1 wrote: ↑04 Apr 2024, 09:35
Sweden and Finland were part of the JEF since the beginning in 2014 so nothing has changed in that regard. The fact they are now part of nato also is a bonus

Not if you are a NATO planner!

Planning simply hasn’t caught up with events yet.

What does scale mean? No country is ready to act effectively in those regions at anything beyond a few thousand troops - maybe on paper but the readiness/kit/logistics to sustain a large operation beyond a battle group isn’t there. Therefore, it’s all relative. I’m pretty sure the Norwegians, Swede...

Because they are the artic and mountain warfare lead units Due to fact that NATO had a tiny land border in the Arctic. Now that Sweden and Finland have joined the majority of the land mass in the JEF region is in the Arctic or Sub-Arctic. If the Army isn’t willing to get persistently involved in th...

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2024, 20:17 The RMs main commitment is the artic if you think they have too many other commitments then the other commitments would go first

Why?

I'm afraid these days it would be little more than a re-enforced Commando, perhaps squeezed to two Commands at a push?? How long that could these days be supported way up in frosty north is debatable.... Exactly my point. The U.K. wants to lead in the JEF region but the vehicles and kit of the Brit...

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2024, 17:39 Is that not what all the exercises last year and this is about

Not on the scale required

If the Army had to deploy 1 or 2 Brigades north of the Arctic circle and sustain that deployment through an Arctic winter how would that go?

The simple fact is that the British Army isn’t equipped to do it.

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2024, 15:27 Its what being the framework nation means bring all the nations together go where the need is, command the operation and support it.

Can the U.K. reliably do that in the Arctic and Sub-Arctic?

There is little sign of that currently.

But we have also accepted leadership of NATO's Enhanced Forward Presence battle group in Estonia and we have signed specific defence treaties direct with both Estonia and Poland. So the focus is spread wider and hence more thinly than just southern Finland and Gotland. I’m not suggesting the Battle...

It’s not about moving a dial it’s about being there. If there is say 2000 uk soldiers on Estonias border and they are killed by a Russian attack the reckoning is that would cause a full response and they know Russia knows that too. The British Army isn’t big enough anymore to knowingly sacrifice 20...

…BBEF (Baltic British Expeditionary Force) is the future reason of the amphibious force, but that I think we all agree makes no sense. It’s a fair question. What should LRG(N) look like if it’s specifically designed to provide rapid transportation of troops and vehicles across the Norwegian coast/B...

So not the JEF region after all just the bits that best suit the narrative. Not at all. It’s the entire JEF area. In the same way that UK Battlegroups in Denmark and the Netherlands would be pointless is a single UK Battlegroup in Estonia going to move the dial? Deploying 2 or 3 rapid reaction Brig...

You dismiss a UK contribution to the 'continental land war' as pointless and a mere token but big up a similar contribution to the Nordics as as huge. A couple of U.K. Battlegroups in the Baltics would be irrelevant apart from boosting morale. It’s a token gesture. The question of securing the Balt...

tomuk wrote: ↑02 Apr 2024, 22:55 So by putting or small contribution into a smaller battlefield it makes it look bigger?

You will have to explain the relevance of whatever that means before I can respond.

OK 3 Cdo and 29 RA Cdo could do with few GBAD Vikings No argument. My point is: If the Army is concentrating of the JEF region and leaving the large land armies to continental Europe, how many Vikings will the British Army need? 5 of the JEF nations are in continental Europe. I know but deploying B...

Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2024, 17:35 OK 3 Cdo and 29 RA Cdo could do with few GBAD Vikings

No argument.

My point is: If the Army is concentrating of the JEF region and leaving the large land armies to continental Europe, how many Vikings will the British Army need?