Jackal and Coyote MWMIK (Army)

[Dahedd]

You do have to wonder why we have made procuring a light mechanised vehicle so difficult when we have a base vehicle in service that has been shown to be configurable to a plethora of roles..

Battle tested...UK built...

I agree its insane.

Resurrecting LIMAWS(R) and (G) would make an awful lot of sense as well, particularly if we procured the 58cal barreled M777-ER, far cheaper than an SPG, a decent number to hold in reserve at low cost, useful for expeditionary ops. LIMAWS(R) could gain exports as well... and potentially reduce the cost of upgrading lots of M270...

[SW1]

You do have to wonder why we have made procuring a light mechanised vehicle so difficult when we have a base vehicle in service that has been shown to be configurable to a plethora of roles..

Battle tested...UK built...

I agree its insane.

Resurrecting LIMAWS(R) and (G) would make an awful lot of sense as well, particularly if we procured the 58cal barreled M777-ER, far cheaper than an SPG, a decent number to hold in reserve at low cost, useful for expeditionary ops. LIMAWS(R) could gain exports as well... and potentially reduce the cost of upgrading lots of M270...

And soothsayer ew, a vehicle that is air portable, even chinook liftable in cert configurations can have enclosed cab. But then it is U.K. designed and built so fails the test…

[Timmymagic]

And soothsayer ew, a vehicle that is air portable, even chinook liftable in cert configurations can have enclosed cab. But then it is U.K. designed and built so fails the test…

To be fair it wasn't thevehicle but the payload that didn't work...

So what do we call this lash up?

LIMAWS(M)?

[Poiuytrewq]

Battle tested...UK built...

The next step needs to be a truly Chinook capable air-mobile version with reconfigurable modules for GMLRS, Brimstone, 105mm, CAMM, 81mm or 120mm mortar plus a highly protected 4x4 version with 30mm and javelin.

Make these the core the UK’s Rapid Reaction Forces.

[SW1]

And soothsayer ew, a vehicle that is air portable, even chinook liftable in cert configurations can have enclosed cab. But then it is U.K. designed and built so fails the test…

To be fair it wasn't thevehicle but the payload that didn't work...

So what do we call this lash up?

LIMAWS(M)?

Back to the future??

[SW1]

And soothsayer ew, a vehicle that is air portable, even chinook liftable in cert configurations can have enclosed cab. But then it is U.K. designed and built so fails the test…

To be fair it wasn't thevehicle but the payload that didn't work...

So what do we call this lash up?

LIMAWS(M)?

Back to the future??

Indeed...seriously though. We've got the Supacat LWR variant on contract, we all know that we're not going to get enough Land Ceptor batteries....and we've just bought a load of Giraffe 1X. It would make an awful lot of sense to stick the 1X on the back of a double cab Supacat HMT600 with armoured cab (space for the operators inside)....that would have plenty of space for the radar, generators and data link on the back....and 4 CAMM rounds. It would provide a rapid, fast moving capability, airportable, protection to a valuable asset (the radar), thicken out the Land Ceptor coverage....be far cheaper than any Boxer based Skyranger...(although I think we need gun based AA as well)...if you wanted the 1X elsewhere you could just use the Hawkeye with Blighter radar set up....which is possibly on the examples in Ukraine...

[SW1]

And soothsayer ew, a vehicle that is air portable, even chinook liftable in cert configurations can have enclosed cab. But then it is U.K. designed and built so fails the test…

To be fair it wasn't thevehicle but the payload that didn't work...

So what do we call this lash up?

LIMAWS(M)?

Back to the future??

Indeed...seriously though. We've got the Supacat LWR variant on contract, we all know that we're not going to get enough Land Ceptor batteries....and we've just bought a load of Giraffe 1X. It would make an awful lot of sense to stick the 1X on the back of a double cab Supacat HMT600 with armoured cab (space for the operators inside)....that would have plenty of space for the radar, generators and data link on the back....and 4 CAMM rounds. It would provide a rapid, fast moving capability, airportable, protection to a valuable asset (the radar), thicken out the Land Ceptor coverage....be far cheaper than any Boxer based Skyranger...(although I think we need gun based AA as well)...if you wanted the 1X elsewhere you could just use the Hawkeye with Blighter radar set up....which is possibly on the examples in Ukraine...

I think we also take inspiration from what the us marines are doing with jltv variants only on the hmt vehicle. A airmobile/lt mech brigade based around this would be useful I think to us.

[SW1]

A airmobile/lt mech brigade based around this would be useful I think to us.

Or at the very least a comparatively cheap capability that the Army could field fast that would address a lot of the gaps we have, maybe not close to completely, whilst it attempts to sort out the mess that it has got itself into over the next decade...

[Tempest414]

So in the last 18 months we have see SC HMT 600 configured for

Light recovery
SP Mortar
SP 105 gun
Brimstone Over watch
Air Defence

and before that MLRS so all we need now is a APC capable of carrying 10 troops and Ambulance and we are good to go

[Poiuytrewq]

So in the last 18 months we have see SC HMT 600 configured for

Light recovery
SP Mortar
SP 105 gun
Brimstone Over watch
Air Defence

and before that MLRS so all we need now is a APC capable of carrying 10 troops and Ambulance and we are good to go

It would be interesting to know what the Ukrainians think of it compared with all the other vehicles they have access to now.

[Tempest414]

So in the last 18 months we have see SC HMT 600 configured for

Light recovery
SP Mortar
SP 105 gun
Brimstone Over watch
Air Defence

and before that MLRS so all we need now is a APC capable of carrying 10 troops and Ambulance and we are good to go

It would be interesting to know what the Ukrainians think of it compared with all the other vehicles they have access to now.

What the Ukrainians think right now is thank god kit keeps coming what they will think once the war is over is what works for us and that is what we should be thinking right now what works for us and what do we have in production

[SW1]

The payloads should be as far as possible platform agnostic what we need as I keep mentioning is assembly, integration and test capabilities as a prerequisite for major equipment purchases in this country. So we can buy and put them on whatever vehicle, ship, aircraft we want.

It so happens in this case we also make the vehicle which is no bad thing. But we should be focusing R&D development spend on the payloads.

[wargame_insomniac]

A airmobile/lt mech brigade based around this would be useful I think to us.

Or at the very least a comparatively cheap capability that the Army could field fast that would address a lot of the gaps we have, maybe not close to completely, whilst it attempts to sort out the mess that it has got itself into over the next decade...

I’m going to name it now but the Army should be creating ARUs (Airborne Response Units) based around light vehicles and the add-one we are discussing- the equivalent of the RM LSU concept. Each around 200 troops centred around 3 A400Ms, grouped into a Brigade with say 12 units with the requirement that another 12 A400Ms are purchased as part of the Global Deployable Force initiative. These would be tasked to be able to provide Area Denial & Strike (Air, Land & Coastal) capabilities anywhere with at least one unit available with immediate notice.

Create another airmobile light mechanised brigade capable, then with the 16AAB the UK gets a globally deployable Airborne Division - giving it a capability that would be relevant and unique outside the US.

[Tempest414]

The payloads should be as far as possible platform agnostic what we need as I keep mentioning is assembly, integration and test capabilities as a prerequisite for major equipment purchases in this country. So we can buy and put them on whatever vehicle, ship, aircraft we want.

It so happens in this case we also make the vehicle which is no bad thing. But we should be focusing R&D development spend on the payloads.

And it would seem that is what is happening when it comes to brimstone it seems the 8 round mount fits on HMT-600 , Boxer and Ajax no doubt it would also fit on a MAN 6x6

When it comes to Mortars it will depend what we go for on boxer in terms of 81 or 120mm but HMT 600 would be able to mount both

Next up artillery both HMT 400 & 600 can tow both the L118 and the M777-ER and when it comes to the light brigades this is all that is needed

as said Light recovery HMT 600 is already coming into service

Air defence we have now seen a 600 with ASRAAM witch could be developed or we could fit the 8 round LMM mount or both

so when it comes to payloads for HMT 400 & 600 we look quite well set

[SW1]

The payloads should be as far as possible platform agnostic what we need as I keep mentioning is assembly, integration and test capabilities as a prerequisite for major equipment purchases in this country. So we can buy and put them on whatever vehicle, ship, aircraft we want.

It so happens in this case we also make the vehicle which is no bad thing. But we should be focusing R&D development spend on the payloads.

And it would seem that is what is happening when it comes to brimstone it seems the 8 round mount fits on HMT-600 , Boxer and Ajax no doubt it would also fit on a MAN 6x6

When it comes to Mortars it will depend what we go for on boxer in terms of 81 or 120mm but HMT 600 would be able to mount both

Next up artillery both HMT 400 & 600 can tow both the L118 and the M777-ER and when it comes to the light brigades this is all that is needed

as said Light recovery HMT 600 is already coming into service

Air defence we have now seen a 600 with ASRAAM witch could be developed or we could fit the 8 round LMM mount or both

so when it comes to payloads for HMT 400 & 600 we look quite well set

Though the problem is we don’t have any of those payloads being bought or at least that appears the case. They are just concepts some have been for a long time.

I do like what the us marines have done with JLTV in this regard but they seem to have more focus on what they want than we do and a plan go about it with purpose.

As for artillery systems stand-off I would like to see ours largely on a man truck. Though that maybe considered to big for light forces.

[SW1]

A airmobile/lt mech brigade based around this would be useful I think to us.

Or at the very least a comparatively cheap capability that the Army could field fast that would address a lot of the gaps we have, maybe not close to completely, whilst it attempts to sort out the mess that it has got itself into over the next decade...

I’m going to name it now but the Army should be creating ARUs (Airborne Response Units) based around light vehicles and the add-one we are discussing- the equivalent of the RM LSU concept. Each around 200 troops centred around 3 A400Ms, grouped into a Brigade with say 12 units with the requirement that another 12 A400Ms are purchased as part of the Global Deployable Force initiative. These would be tasked to be able to provide Area Denial & Strike (Air, Land & Coastal) capabilities anywhere with at least one unit available with immediate notice.

Create another airmobile light mechanised brigade capable, then with the 16AAB the UK gets a globally deployable Airborne Division - giving it a capability that would be relevant and unique outside the US.

Not a bad idea I have felt we should move the 2 marine commandos and 2 para battalions into a single brigade and configure similarly they could be used for fwd specialist recon and direct action for the rest of force. If you look at the requests from the US after 9/11 and their subsequent use this would very much be in demand. If there is also a wish to use more long range fires have fwd observer specialist would be needed.

Would require prioritisation and investment to be directed their way to achieve but I think we should.

[Tempest414]

The payloads should be as far as possible platform agnostic what we need as I keep mentioning is assembly, integration and test capabilities as a prerequisite for major equipment purchases in this country. So we can buy and put them on whatever vehicle, ship, aircraft we want.

It so happens in this case we also make the vehicle which is no bad thing. But we should be focusing R&D development spend on the payloads.

And it would seem that is what is happening when it comes to brimstone it seems the 8 round mount fits on HMT-600 , Boxer and Ajax no doubt it would also fit on a MAN 6x6

When it comes to Mortars it will depend what we go for on boxer in terms of 81 or 120mm but HMT 600 would be able to mount both

Next up artillery both HMT 400 & 600 can tow both the L118 and the M777-ER and when it comes to the light brigades this is all that is needed

as said Light recovery HMT 600 is already coming into service

Air defence we have now seen a 600 with ASRAAM witch could be developed or we could fit the 8 round LMM mount or both

so when it comes to payloads for HMT 400 & 600 we look quite well set

Though the problem is we don’t have any of those payloads being bought or at least that appears the case. They are just concepts some have been for a long time.

I do like what the us marines have done with JLTV in this regard but they seem to have more focus on what they want than we do and a plan go about it with purpose.

As for artillery systems stand-off I would like to see ours largely on a man truck. Though that maybe considered to big for light forces.

I would agree in part but then the USMC has a ton of money to play with ideas the problem with us is we have no real focus as we have said time and time again. For what is worth we need to focus on making the 3rd division all about NATO and JEF and the 1st about globe response and engagement

We should pick one size of artillery and mortar rounds and buy them in numbers

When it comes to the light forces towed guns will be easier to move by air

[Tempest414]

A airmobile/lt mech brigade based around this would be useful I think to us.

Or at the very least a comparatively cheap capability that the Army could field fast that would address a lot of the gaps we have, maybe not close to completely, whilst it attempts to sort out the mess that it has got itself into over the next decade...

I’m going to name it now but the Army should be creating ARUs (Airborne Response Units) based around light vehicles and the add-one we are discussing- the equivalent of the RM LSU concept. Each around 200 troops centred around 3 A400Ms, grouped into a Brigade with say 12 units with the requirement that another 12 A400Ms are purchased as part of the Global Deployable Force initiative. These would be tasked to be able to provide Area Denial & Strike (Air, Land & Coastal) capabilities anywhere with at least one unit available with immediate notice.

Create another airmobile light mechanised brigade capable, then with the 16AAB the UK gets a globally deployable Airborne Division - giving it a capability that would be relevant and unique outside the US.

Not a bad idea I have felt we should move the 2 marine commandos and 2 para battalions into a single brigade and configure similarly they could be used for fwd specialist recon and direct action for the rest of force. If you look at the requests from the US after 9/11 and their subsequent use this would very much be in demand. If there is also a wish to use more long range fires have fwd observer specialist would be needed.

Would require prioritisation and investment to be directed their way to achieve but I think we should.

But in part is this not the job of the Rangers = 4 light battalions of 250 troops when added to the 8 RM LSU's with again 250 troops we do / would have 12 such units

[Tempest414]

But in part is this not the job of the Rangers = 4 light battalions of 250 troops when added to the 8 RM LSU's with again 250 troops we do / would have 12 such units

Different role if I understand it - Rangers will be forward based and primarily involved in training and fighting the grey war.

[Tempest414]

Well as said on other threads if the Army sorts its self out and opted for

1 x Armored brigade = 12th
2 x Boxer based Mechanised brigades = 7th & 20th
2 x Rapid Response brigades = 4th & 16AA

with each having 1 x Cavalry , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery this will leave us with 2 x cavalry and 5 x Infantry so as said we could make another brigade with 1 x Cavalry , 3 x Infantry this would still leave 1 x Cavalry and 2 infantry units which could be made into 9 of your ARU's each with 210 troops

also note to do this I have removed the DFR BCT to allow 6 x Mixed Artillery regts

[Timmymagic]

Though the problem is we don’t have any of those payloads being bought or at least that appears the case. They are just concepts some have been for a long time.

Brimstone is being purchased for the BGOAA requirement
L118 already exists
120mm Mortar is on the way apparently
Light Weight Recovery is on contract

Hell even LIMAWS(R) and (G) were fully developed and tested and ready for production.

Its all far too sensible so will never happen...like using Supacat's LRV or SPV....or bringing back ATMP in its new version...

[Poiuytrewq]

What the Ukrainians think right now is thank god kit keeps coming what they will think once the war is over is what works for us and that is what we should be thinking right now what works for us and what do we have in production

Absolutely but there must be lessons that can be learnt.

The HMT is a phenomenally versatile vehicle but can it be improved as a wider support role for air mobile forces as discussed previously?

- Can the HMT 600 become a high mobility flat bed chassis for universal modular systems and payloads?

- Can the overall weight of the HMT 600 be reduced to help with transportation via Chinook?

- Can the overall weight of the HMT 400 be reduced to help with transportation via Merlin?

- Can rear modules and rapidly fitting appliqué armour be developed to reduce weight for underslung transportation.

The SuperCat HMT is a fantastic basis for a high mobility vehicle for UK air mobile forces but IMO it could be made to be even more versatile and effective with a relatively low risk from a procurement standpoint.

Low cost, low risk, high reward.

This is the type of programme the Army desperately needs to stop the rot.

[Tempest414]

What the Ukrainians think right now is thank god kit keeps coming what they will think once the war is over is what works for us and that is what we should be thinking right now what works for us and what do we have in production

Absolutely but there must be lessons that can be learnt.

The HMT is a phenomenally versatile vehicle but can it be improved as a wider support role for air mobile forces as discussed previously?

- Can the HMT 600 become a high mobility flat bed chassis for universal modular systems and payloads?

- Can the overall weight of the HMT 600 be reduced to help with transportation via Chinook?

- Can the overall weight of the HMT 400 be reduced to help with transportation via Merlin?

- Can rear modules and rapidly fitting appliqué armour be developed to reduce weight for underslung transportation.

The SuperCat HMT is a fantastic basis for a high mobility vehicle for UK air mobile forces but IMO it could be made to be even more versatile and effective with a relatively low risk from a procurement standpoint.

Low cost, low risk, high reward.

This is the type of programme the Army desperately needs to stop the rot.

I think we should only really think about making HMT 400/600 air deployable by C-17 & A400 what we should be looking at as far as 16AA goes is LRV 400 & 600 plus bring back ATMP which can all fit inside a Chinook

[Repulse]

I think we should only really think about making HMT 400/600 air deployable by C-17 & A400 what we should be looking at as far as 16AA goes is LRV 400 & 600 plus bring back ATMP which can all fit inside a Chinook

HMT400 fits in a Chinook - https://supacat.com/products/hmt/hmt400/

[Tempest414]

I think we should only really think about making HMT 400/600 air deployable by C-17 & A400 what we should be looking at as far as 16AA goes is LRV 400 & 600 plus bring back ATMP which can all fit inside a Chinook

HMT400 fits in a Chinook - https://supacat.com/products/hmt/hmt400/

Yes I have seen this done in real lift but it should not be seen as something we would want to do a lot of the LRV 400 was designed to do this more offen and would be a better fit for 16AA this the Supercat said them self is as Chinooks own wight had grown the load margin has dropped off

I think if 16AA and 9 of your ARU's had LRV 400 & 600 they would be in a great place

So we could end up with 3rd division based around Ajax and Boxer and 1st division based around HMT 400 & 600 and LRV 400 & 600