Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[abc123]

Not Germans. Everybody.

^^^^^ this.

EVERYONE is the awkward kid on the block to deal with if they have something to lose.

Indeed. Thanks.

[seaspear]

The need and development for the Eurofighter started in the seventies before the first flight in 1986 hundreds of billions spent for a modest return ,if the F35A is bought instead of putting again billions into the design , development of a new fighter and there is no guarantee that it would be as good as the F35, if not substantially more expensive per unit than the F35 , the call for another European fighter should not be to subsidise and prop up the aircraft industries of countries that are inefficient .

[Frenchie]

I do not want a Franco-German aircraft for just one reason, the A400M.
The A400M demonstrates all the problems of European programs in cooperation. The conflicting requirements of the air forces of the seven client countries led to the creation of a very complex aircraft to develop.
From my point of view, it was the German political pressures that were harmful. At that time, the difficulty in Germany was budgetary availability, which was heavily hypothecated by the Eurofighter program. The German Transall were not to be replaced until 2018. Since the Germans were in no hurry, the German government was in a strong position to negotiate the price of 75 aircraft which gave to the Germany an indispensable role in the program. This allowed to the Germany to capture a proportionate share of the industrial load plan. The Germans have repeatedly threatened to withdraw from the program and lower their target aircraft to acquire. They claim compensation while they have put the program in difficulty.
The one and only thing that matters to them is to sell the product of their industry to them, but not to use it. The Germans have nothing to do that the A400M is a not very successful aircraft because they have no use anyway.
For France the A400M is essential, although the aircraft still lacks capacity, including helicopter refueling, electronic countermeasures, and simultaneous parachute release by the side doors.

[sunstersun]

Germans aren't better or worse than say France/UK/Italy at serving their own interests. It's just than in the context of military procurement their interests are fundamentally different than most nations, which makes them a difficult partner in military programs.

[sunstersun]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 623133.cms

UK jump on board please.

Although I doubt there's money to procure the fighter, the expertise BAE systems could offer would be insane. Never mind the EJ200.

[Defiance]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 623133.cms

UK jump on board please.

Although I doubt there's money to procure the fighter, the expertise BAE systems could offer would be insane. Never mind the EJ200.

BAE have been speaking to Japan for a while now, it's on the cards, but so are Lockheed/Boeing I believe.

[shark bait]

Not convinced things would work out well with Japan, that's a huge risky project, really is jumping in at the deep end with an unknown partner.

For now those expertise are on life support, they will be assisting the Turkish project, and building a prototype for FCAS, with nothing substantial set in stone, we cant afford to let that skill base slip.

[seaspear]

The U.K signed with Japan a Defence Equipment Co-operative Agreement in 2013 there has been some further exchanges not sure the extent in technology transfer

[Lord Jim]

For the UK to be a major player in another European fast jet will take huge governmental financial support to get off the ground. BAe and RR don't care as long as they have work share and income. The former would be happy to even shift its whole manufacturing capability to the US as that is where the money is. Like with ship building the Government is going to have to "Bribe", BAe to retain a manufacturing capability in the UK.

[Defiance]

Out of touch with reality there, friend.

[albedo]

Not convinced things would work out well with Japan, that's a huge risky project, really is jumping in at the deep end with an unknown partner.

Hasn't worked out too well with McLaren/Honda in F1. No doubting the technical expertise available in Japan, but cultural differences seemed to have dogged the collaboration.

[shark bait]

Yep big cultural differences, along with a big time zone difference make it look difficult collaboration.

Better to start with something small like the Meteor upgrade, see how that goes before considering partnering on such a massive project.

Need to find someone in Europe to work with on a next gen fighter.

[Lord Jim]

BAe will invest and concentrate where the money is. RR is more interested in the civilian. What is more likely, BAe being an active partner in a 2nd Gen F-35D/E/F or being part of some Franco/German partnership with the French taking the lead and Germany second? Unless Airbus becomes Europe's military aviation supplier and Europe can skip a generation of platform we are going to be looking towards 20340 for the next European fast jet. Until then, France will evolve the Rafale, German will buy 80 odd F-35As and we will continue to use the Typhoon and F-35 in varying quantities.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Until then, France will evolve the Rafale, German will buy 80 odd F-35As and we will continue to use the Typhoon and F-35 in varying quantities.

The test run is to get the UCAS right, to get value out of those fleets.

And then, to take the next step.

[Lord Jim]

The joint programme between Britain and France to develop a UCAS will probably lead to an pretty impressive demonstrator, but the US will probably be a head of the game and offer the UK a partnership in a UCAS designed to compliment the F-35 at a unit price the European option could not match. Unfortunately like everything related to defence these days funding or rather lack of is going to drive the bus. If the RAF is fortunate by 2040 it could be operating four F-35 Squadrons complimented by two or three UCAS squadrons, or four larger formations operating both types together.

[ArmChairCivvy]

If the RAF is fortunate by 2040 it could be operating four F-35 Squadrons complimented by two or three UCAS squadrons, or four larger formations operating both types together.

This artwork
http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/found ... 2.07am.png
has twin tails for all: 4th gen fighter, 5th gen fighter and the drone, made fatter to hold a lot of gas (wings for subsonic flight included, with tips borrowed straight from airliners, for fuel economy).

What if: you slim it down (closer to the USN experimental UCLAS) for stealth, and make it to a missile truck instead that - as it is unmanned - can stay in the area while manned missions rotate in and out?
- so an overwatch (A2A) mission; a shooter for the other (strike) a/c that would act as its sensors, being more "forward" located
- instead of what the European (land, not carrier-based) project seems to be more predicated to... strike (-cum-strike)
- would be a good reason to cap the "B" purchases for our carriers at 48
- see if any this sort of offering will "cut the mustard"
- and get the RAF some "A"s at a better price/ spec when the Tiffies start to grow old and tired?

[shark bait]

made fatter to hold a lot of gas

And bombs later on......

What if: you slim it down (closer to the USN experimental UCLAS) for stealth, and make it to a missile truck instead that - as it is unmanned - can stay in the area while manned missions rotate in and out?

How is that going to operate from the carrier's?

The RN might get a tilt rotor drone on the carrier's if they're lucky, but a jet powered drone is of the cards for a generation.

[ArmChairCivvy]

a jet powered drone is of the cards for a generation.

To get that pictured (and modified) SeaAvenger operate fro the carriers just needs taking a hack saw to the ski jump (and £ 2 bn in other mods) .

[Lord Jim]

The only hope for the RN to get a fast jet UCAV is for the US to develop an unmanned version of the F-35 that works with the manned one.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the US to develop an unmanned version of the F-35 that works with the manned one.

There is speculation that the Boeing RQ-25 entry is v close to an umnanned Hornet/ SuperHornet... well, they only just lifted the tarpaulin that was covering it in the "tease" photos, so no outsider has got a good idea of the "inners" of it

[ArmChairCivvy]

The joint programme between Britain and France to develop a UCAS will probably lead to an pretty impressive demonstrator, but the US will probably be a head of the game and offer the UK a partnership in a UCAS designed to compliment the F-35 at a unit price the European option could not match. Unfortunately like everything related to defence these days funding or rather lack of is going to drive the bus. If the RAF is fortunate by 2040 it could be operating four F-35 Squadrons complimented by two or three UCAS squadrons, or four larger formations operating both types together.

That is very much the concept that Tim Robinson on aerosociety.com news picked up from a conference - as FCAS has not been defined yet, it is the operational concept about how it would slot in that is taking shape first:
"the concept is still notional, it did reveal some of the company’s thinking around its FCAS. Interestingly the twin-engine, twin-tail stealth design would be a twin-seat design, according to Alberto Gutierrez, Head of Eurofighter Programme, Airbus DS. The second crew member may be especially important for the FCAS concept of operations, which would see it operate in a wider battle network, potentially as a command and control asset or UCAV/UAV mission commander. "

I took the liberty to move the related discussion onto this thread as we had deviated a bit far from the wheeled APCs:
" France and the United Kingdom announced in March 2016 to invest more than 2 billion euros to develop next-generation air combat drones. They hope to have operational equipment by 2025.

Then there is France and Germany who want a European air combat aircraft to replace their current fleets of combat aircraft in the long term (2040)."

Interesting split:
France/ Germany for manned
France/ UK for unmanned
Will they be designed for high inter-operability... or will the US industry manage to break the bank, meaning that the table is no longer available for players from Europe, except on subcontracting and component provider (be it at the level of independent subsystems) basis?

[Frenchie]

Excerpt from the Franco-British summit statement in 2018 :

We have agreed to maintain a continuous program of cooperation on military capabilities for our mutual benefit. The management of sensitive national information exchanges is becoming increasingly important in our mutual cooperation. We are committed to solving any problem that may arise. We reaffirm that cooperation in connection with our "One Complex Weapon" initiative is of strategic importance for both countries and we confirm our unwavering commitment to develop our ambition cooperation in the field of missiles. At the end of the initial phase of the development of the Future Combat Air System (FCAS-DP) demonstrator, we will continue the work of assessing the emerging conclusions in order to make decisions about future phases of the program. We will also look for opportunities for air combat cooperation and continue our capability analysis on the future air combat environment and the ways in which drone and aircraft systems could work together. Our joint project of countermeasures for mine warfare at sea is developing a world-leading autonomous technology in the maritime field. We plan to develop options to enable this system to be quickly put into operational service. We will continue to deepen nuclear cooperation between our two countries in order to strengthen our deterrence posture, while maintaining the independence of our nuclear forces.

[Frenchie]

The document in English and in full :

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... efence.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... unique.pdf

[Lord Jim]

At least in these areas we still share a common goal.

[Frenchie]

Dirk Hoke said France and Germany would work out in coming months how to proceed with the program, including whether to bring in an additional partner country, such as Britain.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKCN1G028E