UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1320
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Sep 2019, 10:18

Confirmed. As expected Italy has joined the Tempest Programme.
Great news!


Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1320
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Sep 2019, 10:19

A larger pic.
Image

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 81
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Location: Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 10 Sep 2019, 10:44

Lets hope everything goes right with the announcement.

But on our forum we are discussing about timing, our calendars would coincide perfectly if not by the gap of the Tornado-F35A, what are UK projects about that?

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1320
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Sep 2019, 10:48

Meriv9 wrote:But on our forum we are discussing about timing, our calendars would coincide perfectly if not by the gap of the Tornado-F35A, what are UK projects about that?


UK has addressed Tornado retirement by undertaking Project Centurion, which has moved most of the Tornado capabilities over to Typhoon (Brimstone, Storm Shadow etc). It hasn't closed the gap completely as we are unable to mount the RAPTOR reconnaissance pod or salvo fire Brimstone at present, but its almost closed.

With F-35A the Italians have less of a gap to close with strike, but they really could do with bringing their Typhoon up to full UK standard and then going for the Captor-E radar 2 variant.

Online
inch
Member
Posts: 572
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 10 Sep 2019, 15:06

Go for it Japan ,you know you want to also :-)

jonas
Member
Posts: 763
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jonas » 10 Sep 2019, 15:06


Online
inch
Member
Posts: 572
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 10 Sep 2019, 15:13

Great for team tempest Italy joining ,much admire the Italians approach to defence equipment ,and great for Italy and great for UK/ sweden ,as italy would get peanuts from the French German alliance

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10335
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Sep 2019, 10:15

" at the DSEI 2019 defense exhibition in London. In signing-up for the Tempest program, Italy joins Sweden as the first two international partners on the project after the Scandinavian nation signed a memorandum of understanding in June to work alongside Team Tempest to develop the future technologies associated with the platform."
- Sweden being in the Combat Air technologies (for their Gripens) but Italy actually signing up for Tempest (whether it translates to a plane being somewhat open still ?)

But for the short time since the initial unveiling, pretty good progress

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1885
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 12 Sep 2019, 20:45

ArmChairCivvy wrote:" at the DSEI 2019 defense exhibition in London. In signing-up for the Tempest program, Italy joins Sweden as the first two international partners on the project after the Scandinavian nation signed a memorandum of understanding in June to work alongside Team Tempest to develop the future technologies associated with the platform."
- Sweden being in the Combat Air technologies (for their Gripens) but Italy actually signing up for Tempest (whether it translates to a plane being somewhat open still ?)

But for the short time since the initial unveiling, pretty good progress


Any info on what financially Sweden or Otaly are contributing? If I recall, the UK has committed £2 billion initially to the programme.

I'd like to see something substantive develop from these agreements, but I wonder if Italy have signed up in order to gain leverage to secure a more substantive role in the French/German programme

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1320
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 12 Sep 2019, 23:30

dmereifield wrote:I'd like to see something substantive develop from these agreements, but I wonder if Italy have signed up in order to gain leverage to secure a more substantive role in the French/German programme


Still to be worked out.
But the Italian's seemed very hacked off with the French/German alliance. That might have changed with the change in Italian government, but it appeared the French and Germans have pretty much divvied up the spoils already and Italy was going to be at best a junior partner. And to be honest their timelines were a little different. It makes far more sense for them with Typhoon and F-35 to link up with the UK.
Apparently Spain making Indra their lead has caused some ructions with Germany as Airbus thought they had it in the bag for both nations...but these things happen. It's still all positioning at the moment, the key thing is keeping everyone onboard until the real decisions have to be made.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10335
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Sep 2019, 04:14

Timmymagic wrote:Still to be worked out.

Leonardo was onboard already when the UK announcement was made. Let's think about it this way:
- the prgrm will deliver systems, but these can be used in many ways (e.g. to upgrade planes already in service)
- anyone who wants to be a supplier of the above will have to take part in the mandatory integration architecture (a bit like the army's GVA), which is also still in dvlpmnt
- the plane itself is optional; do we even know for sure that there will be one?

Moving from facts to fiction: if and when Japan comes onboard, that would answer the third point (and the funding that goes with it)

Online
inch
Member
Posts: 572
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 13 Sep 2019, 07:15

Wonder if apart from courting Japan too join anybody else could be half interested with a credible chance ie tech/finance ?

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5778
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 13 Sep 2019, 08:07

Japan has launched its on future combat air program (again), so who knows where their going.

With the F35 soaking up a lot of the market in Europe there aren't many others left to join. Spain have no firm plans at the moment, but I think they wanted to align with the French/Germans.
@LandSharkUK

Dahedd
Member
Posts: 475
Joined: 06 May 2015, 11:18

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Dahedd » 13 Sep 2019, 08:31

Are Spain planning on replacing their carrier? Can the existing carrier operate the F35b? If not then they'll almost certainly opt for the French/German option. If they are then the F35 (A & B) would probably fill there needs.

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1320
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 13 Sep 2019, 15:00

shark bait wrote:Spain have no firm plans at the moment, but I think they wanted to align with the French/Germans.


Spain signed up with FCAS the other day. Indra is their lead on it, which apparently has pissed off Airbus Defence somewhat...

Timmymagic
Senior Member
Posts: 1320
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 13 Sep 2019, 15:02

Dahedd wrote:Are Spain planning on replacing their carrier? Can the existing carrier operate the F35b? If not then they'll almost certainly opt for the French/German option. If they are then the F35 (A & B) would probably fill there needs.


Not any time soon.
They've also not signed up to F-35B, but it is seen as a nailed on certainty as they will need to replace their EAV-8B+ in the mid to late 2020's. They could try and run them a little longer like the did with AV-8C, but realistically as soon as the USMC retire them they've only got a max of 1-2 years left in Spanish service.

Personally I expect them to join up with the Italians and try and share training/infrastructure etc. as it's unlikely they will buy more than 15 at most.

JFoulke
Member
Posts: 82
Joined: 22 Apr 2018, 16:49
Location: France

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby JFoulke » 13 Sep 2019, 15:08

As far as I know there is no plan ATM for a replacement of the LHD JUAN Carlos, especially because they would like the fixed wing composition to field on it, the AV-8b+ will still hold up for a few years but not much more.
There is no intention to buy he F-35B (that would require a refit of the LHD to operate like Italy is doing with the Cavour), I really don’t think they will go for a STOBAR or CATOBAR Carrier sooooooo.
Timmymagic wrote:
Dahedd wrote:Are Spain planning on replacing their carrier? Can the existing carrier operate the F35b? If not then they'll almost certainly opt for the French/German option. If they are then the F35 (A & B) would probably fill there needs.


Not any time soon.
They've also not signed up to F-35B, but it is seen as a nailed on certainty as they will need to replace their EAV-8B+ in the mid to late 2020's. They could try and run them a little longer like the did with AV-8C, but realistically as soon as the USMC retire them they've only got a max of 1-2 years left in Spanish service.

Personally I expect them to join up with the Italians and try and share training/infrastructure etc. as it's unlikely they will buy more than 15 at most.


The new update won’t help much cause also italy will run it, but won’t guarantee a long term strike force

cky7
Member
Posts: 138
Joined: 13 Dec 2015, 20:19

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby cky7 » 13 Sep 2019, 23:02

As usual excellent interview and analysis from vago with a very interesting chat with sash Tusa on tempest yesterday at DSEI. Also touches on type 31. Couple of interesting snippets from the IV - from talking to industry friends Dassault are already getting pissed off with the Germans and a partnership as this sort of program only moves at the speed of the slowest member as is felt this has already left SCAF 2 years behind Tempest program (this one shocked me, not them being frustrated but being that far behind, makes me think there must be a hell of a lot more done than we’ve been shown). Both are now lining up to try and snap up the remaining European nations as partners. Greece, Austria, Netherlands, Finland, Norway etc all being looked at but by far and a way the big prize both teams will be going all out for is Poland. Oh and apparently Italy was far from nailed on and before yesterday deal with leonardo was purely with Selex U.K. for their sensors, though many in Italy didn’t fancy their chances of a decent share with France but was still seriously looked at SCAF too.


Meriv9
Member
Posts: 81
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Location: Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 14 Sep 2019, 01:06

Don't we have an advantage for Benelux/Poland/Norway since they all adopted the F-35?

jedibeeftrix
Member
Posts: 141
Joined: 09 May 2015, 22:54

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby jedibeeftrix » 14 Sep 2019, 08:13

i'd be delighted if tempest gets Poland.
a serious nation with a serious budget.

Online
inch
Member
Posts: 572
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 14 Sep 2019, 09:26

A hard choice that for Poland ,it's a political at the end of the day ,stay with france/Germany euro project or go with the naughty British brexitters and upset the French / Germans ,I can't call it tbh both got their merrits for Poland . suppose its just how much the EU machine leans on Poland not to break away

JFoulke
Member
Posts: 82
Joined: 22 Apr 2018, 16:49
Location: France

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby JFoulke » 14 Sep 2019, 11:24

inch wrote:A hard choice that for Poland ,it's a political at the end of the day ,stay with france/Germany euro project or go with the naughty British brexitters and upset the French / Germans ,I can't call it tbh both got their merrits for Poland . suppose its just how much the EU machine leans on Poland not to break away

Actually the Tempest program should do all in its power to attract another European nation, any one, so to be able to take some PESCO founds (that are handed out only to programs with at least 3 European nations in it)

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1885
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby dmereifield » 14 Sep 2019, 16:14

JFoulke wrote:
inch wrote:A hard choice that for Poland ,it's a political at the end of the day ,stay with france/Germany euro project or go with the naughty British brexitters and upset the French / Germans ,I can't call it tbh both got their merrits for Poland . suppose its just how much the EU machine leans on Poland not to break away

Actually the Tempest program should do all in its power to attract another European nation, any one, so to be able to take some PESCO founds (that are handed out only to programs with at least 3 European nations in it)


Post Brexit, wouldnt we need another 2 nations besides Italy to make it 3 European nations? Or is the UK still eligible?

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 81
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Location: Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Meriv9 » 14 Sep 2019, 17:40

inch wrote:A hard choice that for Poland ,it's a political at the end of the day ,stay with france/Germany euro project or go with the naughty British brexitters and upset the French / Germans ,I can't call it tbh both got their merrits for Poland . suppose its just how much the EU machine leans on Poland not to break away

There are no allies in EU, no Pareto's efficiency, only national interest. As soon as polish workforce will cost too much they will be dumped for the next stop.

We already saw the German management of the Greek crisis, the delay in accepting the need of QE(5years), how they created the refugee crisis to have cheap workforce, the financial system double standars. Etc.... Etc...

Nah the polish IMHO better get immediate results than trying to get a lasting relationship, sooner or later they will be thrown under the bus like the others.

Online
inch
Member
Posts: 572
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 14 Sep 2019, 18:19

Personally my own opinion would be for UK Italy Japan and hopefully Sweden having influence on Brazil with the Saab choice and setting up manufactring in Brazil they joining project and Norway possible Poland , again Poland would get a heck of a lot more out of it than under France / Germany but as I said EU politics arm twisting will come into play here ,and on the other side France / Germany ,Spain and I think India should join them ,more suitable with the French already getting Rafale and possibly a carrier version


Return to “Royal Air Force”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests