https://www.forces.net/services/navy/ro ... final-timeRoyal Navy workhorse HMS Albion has returned home to Plymouth for possibly the final time.
Although the article doesn't go into any detail, curious where this speculation has come from.
https://www.forces.net/services/navy/ro ... final-timeRoyal Navy workhorse HMS Albion has returned home to Plymouth for possibly the final time.
Silence says it all, neither are coming back.
Can’t see politically they could spin it - both will be held in reserve, slowly decaying and then quietly scrapped in about 3-4 years time.
I could see at least one sold to Brazil before the Turks start slicing them apart.
IMO this is a great example of the dubious wisdom of trying to get 30-35yrs from a hull. It’s virtually guaranteed to become obsolescent long before the OSD.Jensy wrote: ↑10 Sep 2023, 15:42I could see at least one sold to Brazil before the Turks start slicing them apart.
As I said on the future amphib thread, if the Navy don't demonstrate the value and future relevance of heavy ship-to-shore then it will simply be deleted before any comparable replacement is considered.
I'm not sure there is any relevance. The RM is now a light raiding force.
you are in a position to be better informed than many of us, do you have any insight into which elements of 3Cdo still exist - and by how much these supporting functions have been reduced?
This change of doctrine to much lighter forces started with the USMC. Clearly RM and the Korps Mariniers are signed up.Tempest414 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2023, 09:09 As I have said a few time I think the RM are trying to work on the bases of having 8 LSU that can work on there own or all together under the brigade with its enablers
For me we need to retain the ability to put a RM Battalion battle group OTH
You could put a Rudd hanger on an Albion have 4 wildcat and 8 cb90s with rs6 weapons turret and a couple of hover craft and conduct littorial security and manoeuvre/raids. If they had the money and crew to do it but they don’t and can’t while insisting on having 2 carriers operating at the same time it’s the fundamental issues you cannot do both.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑13 Sep 2023, 09:41This change of doctrine to much lighter forces started with the USMC. Clearly RM and the Korps Mariniers are signed up.Tempest414 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2023, 09:09 As I have said a few time I think the RM are trying to work on the bases of having 8 LSU that can work on there own or all together under the brigade with its enablers
For me we need to retain the ability to put a RM Battalion battle group OTH
Are we still sure the USMC have made the correct reorganisation or is subtle u-turn still possible? Even with the change in direction the USMC still have massive scale and virtually limitless strength in depth with the rest of the US military backing them up. The UK doesn’t have that luxury.
Splitting into LSU’s is a good solution but coherently joining the LSU’s back together incrementally all the way back up to a full Brigade must still be a priority.
Considering how much 3 Cdo has been relied upon over the years it difficult to think of a higher priority than maintaining this World class capability.
On an Albion it’s a 2 spot flight deck for chinook so even with a Rudd you would have 2 spots for wildcat.
Now the Albions are gone for a year (at least) it will take a lot to bring them back IMO. If small scale raiding is all that is required now why bother bringing them back? What do they add?
The amphibious fleet was done for when at the 2015 sdsr the RN decided that it was operating two carriers simultaneously and again in 2021sdsr. The dirty little secret was hinted at by sea lords and others at the time without anyone coming out and saying it in those terms as it was too political.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑13 Sep 2023, 15:34Now the Albions are gone for a year (at least) it will take a lot to bring them back IMO. If small scale raiding is all that is required now why bother bringing them back? What do they add?
IMO RN need to get organised now for the battle to replace the Amphibs. The red meat for HMT is the mothballing of the two Albions. Two very expensive hulls to maintain.
Six identical hulls just won’t happen. It will get dropped down to 3 or 4 ‘more capable’ vessels. At that point any remaining Amphibious strength in depth will have gone. Not acceptable.
Why not be proactive?
- Volunteer the mothballing of both Albions with the funding reallocated to complete three £50m LSS conversions of the Bays. Transfer the Bays to RN. If extra mass is required add a Point to each LRG if required. Each Point could embark 4-5 large LCAC. Test them.
- Bay conversion to include 1000sqm hanger and 4x15m davits. Twin Chinook flight deck maintained. A hanger of that size can embark 6x Merlin or 12x Wildcat or a multitude of other UK and Allied Helos and drones.
- Use one LSS Bay to form centre of LRG(N), the second LRG(S) and the third in reserve at Gibraltar.
- Reactivate both Waves and make modest changes to support the LRGs. Attach one wave to each LRG.
- Designate Argus as principal HADR vessel to primarily concentrate on East/West Africa and the Caribbean. Crew predominantly with reservists.
The outcome would be a credible Amphibious force for the next 15 years. The FCF theory could be thoroughly tested and if the worst happened the Albions could be reactivated albeit at a high cost.
No new vessels and no new money needed. RFA headcount crisis largely solved and RN with a much clearer idea of future requirements. What’s not to like?
Perhaps but I think they rely on the embarrassment of a cut of that scale to safeguard it. I don’t think they ever believed it would be allowed to be deleted.SW1 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2023, 16:46 The amphibious fleet was done for when at the 2015 sdsr the RN decided that it was operating two carriers simultaneously and again in 2021sdsr. The dirty little secret was hinted at by sea lords and others at the time without anyone coming out and saying it in those terms as it was too political.
Hence the placeholder that is the MRSS.What has occurred since has been oh shit what do we do now.
Absolutely but the Albions crew would largely cover that. We won’t have the first MRSS before 2034. It’s a decade away, minimum.Bringing the bays into the RN would require several hundred additional crew and maybe additional modifications you can see the difference in how the RAN man there’s.
Totally disagree.The RN does not and should not dedicate ships to HADR it’s a secondary task.
The Albions just don’t fit with the new doctrine. If the doctrine is reverting, great. Unfortunately there is no sign of a change of plan. Hence the prioritisation of the CVFs over the LPD’s.If you wanted a alternative going fwd you could
have the Albions operating in a littoral role along the lines I mentioned, would be cheaper overall and more efficient than reactivating and crewing the additional ships you mention. You wouldn’t need the bays or the Argus
The first FSS won’t need a full crew before 2028/2029. That’s plenty of time to sort the headcount. If it can’t be sorted in 5 years it can’t be sorted.I don’t see the waves coming back and would free the several hundred additional RFA crew that would be needed in the RFA for the 3 new solid stores ships.
The Bays and Albions have virtually identical space available for flight decks.You could pair the Albion with a frigate when it’s operating away from the main task group. I think the littoral groups are a step to far in there present guise and stretch things too much. I don’t believe the bay class have a twin chinook operating capable flight deck only the Albion class
We agree here. Lots of talk about CSG23 but it’s a very modest CSG. Lack of escorts, lack of Auxiliaries, lack of F35 and Allies slotted in to fill the cracks. After 5 years of carrier strike it’s disappointing.However it would need to be at the expense of operating the two carriers simultaneously. If maybe bulwark will come back when Queen Elizabeth goes into refit next year.
There is the issue, everyone is focused on carrier strike rather than CEPP, there’s absolutely no reason to get the CVF can’t be the number one LPH on the planet, but people are stuck in old way of thinking.
I didn’t suggest the CVF couldn’t act as a LPH, simply that most countries don’t spend over £3bn on a LPH.
Who would be buying? Who would want assault ships with no helicopters?