Future Royal Fleet Auxiliary

[topman]

A fundamental issue is to too many tasks too many deployments, wanting to be everywhere.
A lack of focus and priorities of what is important. The use it or lose it mantra often promoted incorrectly or to coin the new phrase constant engagement. Not many are gonna choose work over family especially when there is plenty of attractive offers with flexible/wfh options out there now..

A move back to place more importance on contingency rather than deployments allowing more slack in the system would be a benefit I would think.

Absolutely, we need to pick a couple of areas and do just them. Europe and bits in the ME, bin off all talk of the far east and indian ocean, leave it to those that can afford it.

I agree first and foremost european/Atlantic however I would choose the Indian Ocean over the middle east but I would agree it’s one or the other in that regard not both.

My thinking is we have more connections/basing in the ME plus Aki makes it easier.

[topman]

Defence in general.

Who are you expecting to fill the vacuum created by such a withdrawal?

Whoever can afford it i would imagine.

[wargame_insomniac]

RN will have no additional escorts to be forward based EoS before 2028 without a gap elsewhere. Therefore the Waves are perfect to fill the gaps whilst adding a highly useful force multiplier for other naval assets operating in the region.

The Wave conversions need not be expensive or complicated, certainly nothing on the scale of a T23 LifeEx. The RAS rigs should reduced by one and the liquid capacity should be reduced to provide extra dry store capacity. The twin cranes should be replaced with a single 30t crane and a large working deck created for mexefloats and LCVP etc. The space in the superstructure should be maximised and extensive medical should be added along with additional accommodation where possible. These maximised Waves would be a fantastic test bed for the MRSS concept before any firm decisions are made again, around 2028.

Looks huge conversions effort. Money is needed "in addition to" re-activating the Waves (which are suggested to cost a few million).

My question. Why not simply use Fort Victoria?

My view on Fort Vic is that the RFA don't want to work her that hard she is needed for one job and one only CSG support EoS by keeping ticking over she ready when needed

Agree 100% on Fort Victoria. She has one job and one job only. She has to support both carriers (especially if either is away from UK waters), and so has to be wrapped in cotton wool, and therefore can not be used for other tasks until the first new FSS are available for service.

[SW1]

Defence in general.

Who are you expecting to fill the vacuum created by such a withdrawal?

Frankly I don’t really care who fills the vacuum there. I don’t see it as our long term strategic priority.

Even if we wished to ignore the Middle East, I do not see that we would be able to because the Middle East would not ignore us. See, Iranian attempts to hijack our shipping for example.

The whole “our shipping” is more flagged for insurance/tax/environmental issues. Or flag of convenience I think the term is. How do Panama or the Marshall Islands respond when their ships are hijacked? After all 40% of the worlds fleet is registered there.

If the ship is made in China crewed by Bangladeshi or Indian crew and sails between Saudi and Vietnam but flagged in the UK how much responsibility do we really have.

[SW1]

A fundamental issue is to too many tasks too many deployments, wanting to be everywhere.
A lack of focus and priorities of what is important. The use it or lose it mantra often promoted incorrectly or to coin the new phrase constant engagement. Not many are gonna choose work over family especially when there is plenty of attractive offers with flexible/wfh options out there now..

A move back to place more importance on contingency rather than deployments allowing more slack in the system would be a benefit I would think.

Absolutely, we need to pick a couple of areas and do just them. Europe and bits in the ME, bin off all talk of the far east and indian ocean, leave it to those that can afford it.

I agree first and foremost european/Atlantic however I would choose the Indian Ocean over the middle east but I would agree it’s one or the other in that regard not both.

My thinking is we have more connections/basing in the ME plus Aki makes it easier.

Yes the basing is easier 7 historically we have been involved that’s a fair argument. For me though my preference would be to sort fence off (figuratively rather than actually) and let them sort themselves out it’s not like they don’t have the cash to do it.

For us we simply watch and listen from afar and monitor traffic flows around the periphery of the Middle East. AK at the northern end of suez and Indian Ocean territories for the flows into the southern end of the Red Sea monitoring that traffic from Asia particularly from the likes of western Australia’s Indonesia and India into Europe..

[Poiuytrewq]

Frankly I don’t really care who fills the vacuum there. I don’t see it as our long term strategic priority.

Are you proposing a UK Foreign policy based around isolationism?

Since WW2 global peace and prosperity has been founded on the international rules based order. If countries like the U.K. retreat into isolationism the vacuum will be filled by other nations with a totally different set of values.

History shows that disarmament and isolationism only results in one outcome in the end.

You can have one area to focus on it’s either the Middle East, the Indian Ocean or the far east put it really is pick one.

Completely disagree.

Providing limited RN global presence costs a fraction of UK GDP.

It’s money well spent to maintain the International Rules Based Order. The priority is maintaining stability.

Stability equals prosperity.

[tomuk]

I guess Poiuytrewq-san is talking about the RFA crew "lost" in the last year. There are hundreds of skilled sailors/officers. They just went away. Pay rise cannot bring them back?

My opinion is that the MoD must get better at managing both RN and RFA manning and skills or the entire structure must be reformed. It must be fit for purpose.

To decommission vessels due to lack of crew is scandalous and totally unacceptable. There needs to be clear career paths from RN into RFA plus much improved incentives to do so. Retaining skills within RN/RFA is paramount and it can be done without delay if it is prioritised.

Could an outsource provider like Serco find the crews for the Waves? If so why can’t the RFA?

If the terms and conditions are generous then the crews will be found in short order. The same applies to the deep sea fishing industry and offshore oil and gas. The upcoming defence command paper must address the recruitment and retention issues without delay. All that is required is the political will to solve it.

Defeatism is a state of mind.

The basic problem with the RFA is the wages are now too low compared to the wider industry that combined with the unpredictability of deployments\tasking mean it is just unattractive. You can earn more and liv your life in a more predictable way in the commercial world.

[SW1]

Frankly I don’t really care who fills the vacuum there. I don’t see it as our long term strategic priority.

Are you proposing a UK Foreign policy based around isolationism?

Since WW2 global peace and prosperity has been founded on the international rules based order. If countries like the U.K. retreat into isolationism the vacuum will be filled by other nations with a totally different set of values.

History shows that disarmament and isolationism only results in one outcome in the end.

You can have one area to focus on it’s either the Middle East, the Indian Ocean or the far east put it really is pick one.

Completely disagree.

Providing limited RN global presence costs a fraction of UK GDP.

It’s money well spent to maintain the International Rules Based Order. The priority is maintaining stability.

Stability equals prosperity.

I am proposing we focus on very specific areas which are important for us. I am making a choice based on the budget we allocate for defence and security. It isn’t about disarmament it’s about doing what we do properly and having contingency to respond.

Providing presence limited or otherwise is what pulls resources out of shape. It’s not the big operations in one area that is the problem it’s when you get into multiple limited presences everywhere that starts to stretch things because it stretches all the pinch points to breaking.

We work with like minded allies exchange information and technology to ensure they defend and secure their own areas so we don’t have to be there.

That’s is how we provide stability in the areas we care about. It is absolutely NOT about us needing to be everywhere to maintain said stability. It’s why Australia and Japan does not need to be in the Atlantic they know we are and so can rest easy that the area is stable and vice versa.

[RichardIC]

Excellent article by former RN captain Tome Sharpe.



He’s analysed the comments. Key:




Only 4% thought lack of people significant.

You just throw more money at it and it’s “quick and simple”. Trained people just happen at all levels of seniority.

[Repulse]

How would you like to see the figures presented to make them easier to understand?

One idea would to make it relate to outcomes - e.g. x% of the escort fleet, y% of helicopters are crewed etc.

I know it dumbing it down and but as we all know a shortage of even one specialist role means a ship cannot go to sea.

Already do deposits at low interest, 50% of salary upto £20k. Can claim 20hrs/pw/child of free childcare, started this year.

How about 0% mortgage for life for those that have done 10 years - think big

[RichardIC]

How would you like to see the figures presented to make them easier to understand?

One idea would to make it relate to outcomes - e.g. x% of the escort fleet, y% of helicopters are crewed etc.

I know it dumbing it down and but as we all know a shortage of even one specialist role means a ship cannot go to sea.

Already do deposits at low interest, 50% of salary upto £20k. Can claim 20hrs/pw/child of free childcare, started this year.

How about 0% mortgage for life for those that have done 10 years - think big

You have to incentivise somehow. But it has to be done within the wider context of public service pay. There are also chronic shortages of senior nurses and teachers. 0% mortgages for life for them too?

I wasn’t aware RFA pay used to be linked to pay for BP officers. Possible way to go.

The real challenge isn’t increasing recruitment, it’s getting back people who have left with 20+ years experience.

[Repulse]

No other public service is asked to put their lives at risk fighting for the country and be away from home for prolonged periods - it’s has to be seem and acknowledged as exceptional.

Understand your comment on keeping experience - in any job there is an element of people wanting a change, what keeps many there is ultimately the career progression. IMO this why the number of ships is important, alongside tempo, people need to progress into senior roles, and these ships do not all need to be frigates.

[Poiuytrewq]

That’s is how we provide stability in the areas we care about. It is absolutely NOT about us needing to be everywhere to maintain said stability.

Clearly the UK cannot do all things everywhere. I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that. It’s just a constructive disagreement on the distribution of resources and establishing priorities.

I understand your reasoning but what is the next step when instability is detected? Long before the tensions lead to a kinetic exchange in an effort to try to prevent such an outcome?

[RichardIC]

No other public service is asked to put their lives at risk fighting for the country and be away from home for prolonged periods - it’s has to be seem and acknowledged as exceptional.

Understand your comment on keeping experience.

You really don’t need to convince me on the first point.

On the issue of experience it’s no longer a case of keeping people. It’s getting them back. If not ex-RFA then other senior level merchant mariners.

[SW1]

That’s is how we provide stability in the areas we care about. It is absolutely NOT about us needing to be everywhere to maintain said stability.

Clearly the UK cannot do all things everywhere. I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that. It’s just a constructive disagreement on the distribution of resources and establishing priorities.

I understand your reasoning but what is the next step when instability is detected? Long before the tensions lead to a kinetic exchange in an effort to try to prevent such an outcome?

Depends on the nature of the instability, if we decide to get involved and the response of the international community. It’s why you build contingency to be able to react.

[topman]

How would you like to see the figures presented to make them easier to understand?

One idea would to make it relate to outcomes - e.g. x% of the escort fleet, y% of helicopters are crewed etc.

I know it dumbing it down and but as we all know a shortage of even one specialist role means a ship cannot go to sea.

Already do deposits at low interest, 50% of salary upto £20k. Can claim 20hrs/pw/child of free childcare, started this year.

How about 0% mortgage for life for those that have done 10 years - think big

That could be, those numbers are produced internally but aren't published for reasons above my pay grade.

Probably a no no from the treasury, they set a floor for interest rates due to BIK. 0% isn't in the MoD's power to grant.

[Poiuytrewq]

Depends on the nature of the instability, if we decide to get involved and the response of the international community. It’s why you build contingency to be able to react.

Thats logical.

The instability and tension in the Asia Pacific region is now pretty clear. The response from the international community is gradually increasing albeit with some nations being more involved than others. Are you therefore suggesting the UK simply shouldn’t get involved? Effectively sit this one out and leave it to others in the region?

[SW1]

Depends on the nature of the instability, if we decide to get involved and the response of the international community. It’s why you build contingency to be able to react.

Thats logical.

The instability and tension in the Asia Pacific region is now pretty clear. The response from the international community is gradually increasing albeit with some nations being more involved than others. Are you therefore suggesting the UK simply shouldn’t get involved? Effectively sit this one out and leave it to others in the region?

If your definition of sitting it out is not engaging military assets in region then at present yes we sit it out. What we can do is bolster security here freeing additional US assets for deployment in the pacific.

We are involved in so much that we are providing technology to Japan and Australia to enhance security of the region.

I’m sure we are providing intelligence flows as well.

I guess we are at least starting to wean ourselves off Chinese manufacturing.

[Tempest414]

No other public service is asked to put their lives at risk fighting for the country and be away from home for prolonged periods - it’s has to be seem and acknowledged as exceptional.

Understand your comment on keeping experience - in any job there is an element of people wanting a change, what keeps many there is ultimately the career progression. IMO this why the number of ships is important, alongside tempo, people need to progress into senior roles, and these ships do not all need to be frigates.

My other half was a teacher and has had chairs thrown at her and when I worked in A&E I was punched threatened with a knife

What is the pay for same RFA / Teacher / Nurse ?

[donald_of_tokyo]

No other public service is asked to put their lives at risk fighting for the country and be away from home for prolonged periods - it’s has to be seem and acknowledged as exceptional.

Understand your comment on keeping experience - in any job there is an element of people wanting a change, what keeps many there is ultimately the career progression. IMO this why the number of ships is important, alongside tempo, people need to progress into senior roles, and these ships do not all need to be frigates.

My other half was a teacher and has had chairs thrown at her and when I worked in A&E I was punched threatened with a knife

What is the pay for same RFA / Teacher / Nurse ?

I think the same applies to RN serviceman. In addition, they face military threats. Not “in place”, but “in addition”. And, RN people needs to stand there. They are there to protect and help others. Looks very different to me.

[Poiuytrewq]

What we can do is bolster security here freeing additional US assets for deployment in the pacific.

Is that not the literal definition of strategic isolationism?

[Poiuytrewq]

No other public service is asked to put their lives at risk fighting for the country and be away from home for prolonged periods - it’s has to be seem and acknowledged as exceptional.

Which is why someone with the skill sets required should be able to transition across from RN to RFA with improved terms and conditions to keep the headcount stable.

If set up correctly RFA positions should be highly sought after with a waiting list for those wishing to transfer from RN to RFA especially at the latter end of careers.

Trying to headhunt from the commercial sector is vastly more expensive and also clearly not working.

[SW1]

What we can do is bolster security here freeing additional US assets for deployment in the pacific.

Is that not the literal definition of strategic isolationism?

No it isnt. Strategic isolation would be declaring neutrality and leaving nato.

[Tempest414]

No other public service is asked to put their lives at risk fighting for the country and be away from home for prolonged periods - it’s has to be seem and acknowledged as exceptional.

Understand your comment on keeping experience - in any job there is an element of people wanting a change, what keeps many there is ultimately the career progression. IMO this why the number of ships is important, alongside tempo, people need to progress into senior roles, and these ships do not all need to be frigates.

My other half was a teacher and has had chairs thrown at her and when I worked in A&E I was punched threatened with a knife

What is the pay for same RFA / Teacher / Nurse ?

I think the same applies to RN serviceman. In addition, they face military threats. Not “in place”, but “in addition”. And, RN people needs to stand there. They are there to protect and help others. Looks very different to me.

well you have clearly never had to defend 2 nurses from a bolke with a knife plus I have sat both side as I have served in the RAF and worked in the NHS and given the last few years with Covid when nurses and teachers had stay in post at great risk to them self without the kit they needed not one that knew turned and left they stood there ground and 3 people I knew died of Covid there is a lot to think about

On top of the above we not talking RN we are talking RFA now I am not saying that all should get the same pay but each has its pros and cons and lets be clear that people sign up and the problem of pay is one that has been coming down the line for some time

[donald_of_tokyo]

well you have clearly never had to defend 2 nurses from a bolke with a knife plus I have sat both side as I have served in the RAF and worked in the NHS and given the last few years with Covid when nurses and teachers had stay in post at great risk to them self without the kit they needed not one that knew turned and left they stood there ground and 3 people I knew died of Covid there is a lot to think about

On top of the above we not talking RN we are talking RFA now I am not saying that all should get the same pay but each has its pros and cons and lets be clear that people sign up and the problem of pay is one that has been coming down the line for some time

No I never served at Hospital. And I know COVID was exactly the war for them.

But, I know tens (or hundred) of thousands of soldiers are NOW dying in Ukraine. Millions of soldiers (and people) died in WW2, including some of brothers of my grandfather.

I do not think it is the same. Just my thinking.

On RFA, I am not totally sure. What is the difference between HMS Shefield, RFA Sir Galahad, and Atlantic Conveyor? There is no clear answer, I agree.