Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[SW1]

Thought this an interesting paper on the topic

https://www.bmt.org/media/3054/rina-war ... -paper.pdf

What? I believe this paper just argues for a mother ship; That is what LSV is. Give me a few minutes to read it.

unmanned systems offer a revolutionary change to the concept of operations for naval minewarfare. Extensive research
led BMT to conclude, that given the current rate of development of autonomous systems, a need shall remain for the
foreseeable future for a specialist mine counter-measures (MCM) platform from which the autonomous systems can be
hosted and operated. These ships shall form an integral element of a nation’s maritime MCM capability and the new
operating concept requires a very different platform to the existing ships.

Yeah read the document see what was proposed and then compare what the 3 nations are doing here

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... therships/

[new guy]

10 SeaSense USV systems will be covering 5 important ports/channels 24/7.

I wouldn't believe so, at least not with as few as 10 USV's. I you look at project wilton (Navylookout source)

...Wilton is equipped with 3 boats that can carry REMUS 100 and 600 small-medium UUVs, Side-scan sonars and M500 ROVs....

... once operational, are expected to provide 100 days of RTSV tasking and a further 60 days of trials per year. The unit is also tasked with developing organisational structures, doctrine and establishing standard operating procedures as well as supporting trials and evaluation for future RN MAS.

With a USV, Endurance is increased, but availability not as much so. Meaning yes you will be able to do incredibly longer operations, but the amount of individual operations will decrease.

[new guy]

Thought this an interesting paper on the topic

https://www.bmt.org/media/3054/rina-war ... -paper.pdf

What? I believe this paper just argues for a mother ship; That is what LSV is. Give me a few minutes to read it.

unmanned systems offer a revolutionary change to the concept of operations for naval minewarfare. Extensive research
led BMT to conclude, that given the current rate of development of autonomous systems, a need shall remain for the
foreseeable future for a specialist mine counter-measures (MCM) platform from which the autonomous systems can be
hosted and operated. These ships shall form an integral element of a nation’s maritime MCM capability and the new
operating concept requires a very different platform to the existing ships.

Yeah read the document see what was proposed and then compare what the 3 nations are doing here

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... therships/

look at what the City class doesn't have

3.6 EMBARKING THE MCM TOOLBOX
Unmanned technologies are evolving fast so the ship
(which is designed for a life of at least 25 years) is
expected to embark several generations of the MCM
toolbox over its lifetime. Hence, it is fundamental that
the ship’s design is able to readily accommodate these
different solutions without incurring significant cost or
impact to its availability.
To achieve this flexibility, an approach was adopted
similar to that used by the offshore sector where the ships
are adapted frequently to embark and deploy different
project payloads.

[tomuk]

Why are we discussing MCMs in the Escort thread?

[donald_of_tokyo]

10 SeaSense USV systems will be covering 5 important ports/channels 24/7.

I wouldn't believe so, at least not with as few as 10 USV's. I you look at project wilton (Navylookout source)

...Wilton is equipped with 3 boats that can carry REMUS 100 and 600 small-medium UUVs, Side-scan sonars and M500 ROVs....
... once operational, are expected to provide 100 days of RTSV tasking and a further 60 days of trials per year. The unit is also tasked with developing organisational structures, doctrine and establishing standard operating procedures as well as supporting trials and evaluation for future RN MAS.

With a USV, Endurance is increased, but availability not as much so. Meaning yes you will be able to do incredibly longer operations, but the amount of individual operations will decrease.

Very good point. It does not degrade the USV importance, but its efficiency shall be well calculated. As Atlas-E shows 3 systems (typically) for deployment on choke point ASW taskings, they shall have some idea, but anyway it is not open in public information.

"Regardless", it has many good places to live.

T26 shall carry two ARCIMS 11m USV, I think.
- ASW: Before T26 reaching a shallow water with probable enemy SSK, T26 can deploy ARCIMS-ASW to pre-scan the area. Even if not detected, when ARCIMS sonar pinging is there, the SSK must hide = cannot move fast. As T26 is quiet, the SSK do not know where it is, so it is a one-sided game. If T26 needs to ping by herself, then enemy SSK knows her location immediately. This is a big merit. Also, in general, multi-static sonar operation means having multiple pinger and listener make the T26-team very good at ASW.
- MCM: The most important in MCM is NOT destroying enemy mines, but locating them, knowing their existence. Seabed scan with side-scan sonar is the answer now. To do this, actually, ARCIMS level USV is NOT needed. Just a small REMUS pods can do. (This is a great merit. RN do not need to send HMS Alacrity going back and forth in the Falkland channel just to see she is not sunken by mines). But, ARCIMS can do this more fast, using much larger side-scan sonar, I understand. Speed is another importance in war.
- Sentry: For defending against fast boat attack in gray-zone theater, having a tireless sentry will make the tasks easier. Combined with the 2 RHIBs carried, the 2 USV added with sensor (and maybe RWS) will improve the situation awareness very much. If there is time and distance, the T26 can send a Wildcat.

These tasks are not valid in blue water fast transit. But, blue water cruising is where the T26's ASW kit is best operated. So, it is not a big problem. Adding ARCIMS 11m USV with ASW and MCM options to T26 will largely improve its capability in shallow water, near the enemy shore.

My thought.

[Poiuytrewq]

T26 shall carry two ARCIMS 11m USV….

Hence the reason for 4x boats houses on the original T31 design.

Now that the T31 is to be quite substantially upgraded with Mk41 it’s becoming a higher value target especially if all VLS cells are filled with more than fresh air, what’s the plan for T31? Ignore the deficiency and hope for another 5x T32 to solve it?

Seems odd considering the Polish variant has solved it already.

Could this be part of the extra funding settlement with Babcock to adapt hulls 3,4 & 5?

[Tempest414]

T26 shall carry two ARCIMS 11m USV….

Hence the reason for 4x boats houses on the original T31 design.

Now that the T31 is to be quite substantially upgraded with Mk41 it’s becoming a higher value target especially if all VLS cells are filled with more than fresh air, what’s the plan for T31? Ignore the deficiency and hope for another 5x T32 to solve it?

Seems odd considering the Polish variant has solved it already.

Could this be part of the extra funding settlement with Babcock to adapt hulls 3,4 & 5?

What deficiencies are you talking about

[Poiuytrewq]

What deficiencies are you talking about

Simply the ability to launch and recover craft large enough to future proof MCM and ASW.

IMG_1527.jpeg

IMG_1529.jpeg

IMG_1528.png

[Repulse]

Given the first T31 is being launched this year, unless I’ve missed it there seems a lack of recent information on what it will have out of the box, does anyone have any links?

All the discussion seems to be based on what people want it to be rather than what it is - how many CAMM will it have (all sources I can find still state 12-24), and are the boat bays large enough to operate and maintain 11m USVs (I’ve only seen 7.5m boats in schematics)?

Edit - the RN website states:

Boat bays have been incorporated into the Inspiration Class frigates to launch and recover three PAC-24 boats. These can then be used to support boarding operations, anti-narcotics and piracy missions, as well as rendering assistance to other maritime craft.

[Tempest414]

Given the first T31 is being launched this year, unless I’ve missed it there seems a lack of recent information on what it will have out of the box, does anyone have any links?

All the discussion seems to be based on what people want it to be rather than what it is - how many CAMM will it have (all sources I can find still state 12-24), and are the boat bays large enough to operate and maintain 11m USVs (I’ve only seen 7.5m boats in schematics)?

That is the Million dollar question the RN are playing it very quite at this time but time is running out and we should know this year

[Tempest414]

As I remember each of the boat bays can take the BAE Pacific 950

[donald_of_tokyo]

Babcock guy stated that they are 9.5 m boat bays. (in the middle of the article)

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/babcocks-arr ... 31-frigate

[Tempest414]

If so we know the Unmanned Pacific 950 has about a 2 ton payload capability

[donald_of_tokyo]

T31 carrying two unmanned Pacific 9.5 (and one RHIB), and T26 carrying 2 RHIB and 2 ARCIMS looks just fine.

Actually, if the crane remains, T31 can add a few RHIB or unmanned Pacific 9.5 on the mid deck.
Also, T26 hangar can accommodate third ARCIMS, while retaining 2 RHIBs.

But I think T31's boat bay is just normal, and T26 mission bay is just "great".

[NickC]

Given the first T31 is being launched this year, unless I’ve missed it there seems a lack of recent information on what it will have out of the box, does anyone have any links?

All the discussion seems to be based on what people want it to be rather than what it is - how many CAMM will it have (all sources I can find still state 12-24), and are the boat bays large enough to operate and maintain 11m USVs (I’ve only seen 7.5m boats in schematics)?

That is the Million dollar question the RN are playing it very quite at this time but time is running out and we should know this year

I hope I'm wrong but think RN too embarrassed to admit what limited kit fitted.

Looked at the Meko A-200 one of the four Australian possible choices of 11 general purpose frigate buy, Naval News has a write up of the four Egyptian Mekko A-200 frigates and how the kit compares with the RN T31 "frigate" for firepower and sensors, as said it looks embarrassing from what understand is known at present.

The Egyptian Meko A-200 is armed with the Leonardo 127/64 LW 127 mm main gun (70 lbs shell possibly with VULCANO ammunition), 16x MM-40 Exocet Block 3 anti-ship missiles, 32x VLS for MBDA VL MICA NG surface to air missiles (first platform for this new missile) also armed with 2×2 MU90 Eurotorp LWT for ASW.
The sensor suite includes Thales NS110 Air and Surface surveillance radar, Thales STIR fire control radar, Thales Mirador optronic director and Atlas Elektronik hull-mounted sonar and a low frequency towed array sonar.

That compares with the T31 "frigate" (a much larger ship than the Meko A-200) a Bofors 57mm (6 pdr) main gun and two Bofors 40 mm, no anti-ship missiles, 24? Sea Ceptor missiles, no LWT for ASW.
Sensor suite is the same Thales NS110 Air and Surface surveillance radar, but no Thales STIR fire control radar, same Thales Mirador optronic directors but arguably the main difference is no HMS or low frequency TASS for any ASW capability.

[serge750]

How would that cost if built in british yard ?

Wonder how much all the desirable sensors & weopons would cost....1/2 to 2/3 of the cost of a T26


Still think there is a need for small number of cheaper ships ( or more investment ) for all the tasks that are demanded of the RN

[Repulse]

Still think there is a need for small number of cheaper ships ( or more investment ) for all the tasks that are demanded of the RN

Which of the current ones do you think need this?

[Repulse]

Why are we discussing MCMs in the Escort thread?

Perhaps because given the lack of planned future MCM motherships the escorts are going to have to fill most of the gap?

[serge750]

I see them as place holders until the big guns arrive, so for me the med would be ok, along with EOS & also escorting - showing presence for Russians/non NATO ships around the UK - so I think 5 is enough !

[SW1]

I would joined the Dutch,Belgium and French program and built around 6-8 vessels…

Absolutely - 8 would allow the RN to commit a vessel permanently each to SNMCMG1, SNMCMG2 and Kipion, plus one “on call” for anything happening in UK waters.

Make it 10 and we’ve answered the B1 River replacement requirement.

[Tempest414]

How would that cost if built in british yard ?

Wonder how much all the desirable sensors & weopons would cost....1/2 to 2/3 of the cost of a T26


Still think there is a need for small number of cheaper ships ( or more investment ) for all the tasks that are demanded of the RN

So this is my thinking is that a Type 31 with 40 CAMM , 16 NSM's plus Sea Lancer would cost about 360 million unit price so just over 2/5th that of a current type 26

Adding Mk-41 will add cost clearly

[Scimitar54]

The point is, that with (low) price and (basic) armaments, the first T31 will be in the water this year. The remaining four of (hopefully just) the first batch will follow in fairly short order.

The T31 are needed now, as the T23 GP’s are coming to the end of their lives.

Augmentation of armaments and sensors that may then be seen as required, will be in the hands of the RN and to be installed during suitable capability insertion periods (most likely to happen between deployments). They will however be in commission and in service.

What is the alternative? Suspend Work? Wait until alterations can be decided on? Wait until additional cost is agreed? Wait until the design changes can be made?

Result ………… Delayed completion, Delayed F.O.C. Sea Trials and Acceptance into service,
Build costs increased to an unnecessary extent, Further reduction in escort numbers.

I repeat ……… The T31 are needed now, as the T23 GP’s are coming to the end of their lives.

Yes we do need more, but we need considerably more of much else as well.

[new guy]

I would joined the Dutch,Belgium and French program and built around 6-8 vessels…

Absolutely - 8 would allow the RN to commit a vessel permanently each to SNMCMG1, SNMCMG2 and Kipion, plus one “on call” for anything happening in UK waters.

Make it 10 and we’ve answered the B1 River replacement requirement.

We have already outgrown that design.
The RN plans to have 3 boats per MMCM system, and the french design ownly has 2 boat bays.
Then add the fact that we also have the SWEEP system which is at a minimum 1 ARCIMS boat and 3 Coil Auxillary Boats that I believe stack into the space of 1 ARCIMS.
Add on the Portable Command Centres, the multiple equipment changes for the USV's, future growth, UUV's, e.c.t, e.c.t then it is all to clear.

[Repulse]

I would joined the Dutch,Belgium and French program and built around 6-8 vessels…

Absolutely - 8 would allow the RN to commit a vessel permanently each to SNMCMG1, SNMCMG2 and Kipion, plus one “on call” for anything happening in UK waters.

Make it 10 and we’ve answered the B1 River replacement requirement.

We have already outgrown that design.
The RN plans to have 3 boats per MMCM system, and the french design ownly has 2 boat bays.
Then add the fact that we also have the SWEEP system which is at a minimum 1 ARCIMS boat and 3 Coil Auxillary Boats that I believe stack into the space of 1 ARCIMS.
Add on the Portable Command Centres, the multiple equipment changes for the USV's, future growth, UUV's, e.c.t, e.c.t then it is all to clear.

So unless we end uk with a fleet of commercial ships capable of operating these but adding nothing more what do you suggest? The T31 can’t handle that number of large USVs (even in Polish configuration), though the Rivers and T26 can, along with the amphibious ships.

If the RN wants to be a lead in NATO against probable Russian threats, contributing to SNMCMG1 and SNMCMG2 is surely a must. Kipion I can give or take.

[Repulse]

I see them as place holders until the big guns arrive, so for me the med would be ok, along with EOS & also escorting - showing presence for Russians/non NATO ships around the UK - so I think 5 is enough !

Which part of the Med? How many EoS?